Gary said...
I'll repeat here what I posted on the other blog.....compare Matthew 16:18-"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."with the Scriptures that speak about the Antichrist making war against the saints?
Daniel tells us, “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them” (7:21).
InRevelation 13:7, we read, “And it was given unto him [the Anti-christ] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.
How can the 2 positions be reconciled unless the first refers to the pre wrath raptured church,and the Daniel and Revelation passages refer to the tribulation saints?I believe this poses a bit of a dilemma for the post trib position
also-a question....how many separate times has Jesus appeared on earth?
Okay,
So Gary is saying Satan cannot prevail against the church but that does not mean that at certain times in history even to the present day christians have not been persecuted, butchered and driven from one country to the next. Indeed when antichrist is revealed he will persecute the saints and prevail against them but the gates of hell will not prevail
JN Darby states: "The expression "The gates of hades," of the invisible world, refers to this kingdom of Satan. It is then on this power, which leaves the stronghold of the enemy without strength, that the assembly is built. The life of God shall not be destroyed. The Son of the living God shall not be overcome. That; then, which God founds upon this rock of the unchangeable power of life in His Son shall not be overthrown by the kingdom of death."
John Wesley writes: "The gates of hell - As gates and walls were the strength of cities, and as courts of judicature were held in their gates, this phrase properly signifies the power and policy of Satan and his instruments. Shall not prevail against it - Not against the Church universal, so as to destroy it. And they never did. There hath been a small remnant in all ages."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These latter day saints (not Mormons) do not constitute the entire church throughout history.
It is the church universal that shall never be beaten.
What about the perecutions throughout history against different christians? Was scripture made null and void then? Of course not. These scriptures Dan. 7; Matt 16 and Rev. 13. are compatible.
Rick wrote:
Bob seems to think that the church not being mentioned after Rev 3 doesn't mean anything and that Church and Saints are both interchangable terms. But if we change the word saints to church in Revelation 13:7 then we have a huge problem with it being a complete contradiciction to Matthew 16:18.
Sorry but I see no contradiction between Revelation 13:7 and Matthew 16:18.
Think of the early church persecuted driven undrgound. Think of the Roman Catholic church and the murder and barbarity it commited against true believers during the inquisition.
Many died...overcome by the enemy. Was the chucrh defeated? No all these shall rise again in glory. In the final outcome the gates of Hell shall not prevail because even if we are all martyred we shall rise again and return with Christ in glorious bodies like unto his glorious body.
But let's we say you are correct and the saints in Revelation are NOT the church.
Okay let's agree then.
The saints in Revelation are NOT the church but are tribulation saints, those people converted after the rapture.
Now let's read Revelation 20:7-10 which is an account of the events after armageddon and into the 1,000 year reign with christ :
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Just look at verse 9 again...so the camp of the saints and the beloved city is nothing to do with the church??
Where is the church then at this time?
It is strange that all through the New Testament saints are the church until we get to Revelation. Then they magically turn into tribulaton converts. That is not consistant.
Blessings I am off for a 2 mile walk with my mp3 player.
3 comments:
Bob,
What exactly is your answer? You didn't answer the question. You created your own interpretation of what Gary said to try to suit your argument. This is another cop out technique similar to the straw man to avoid answering a question. Are YOU (not Gary), saying that Satan can not make war with the saints but the AC can? Please explain. Because if that is what you believe I have to seriously question your overall understanding of many things. Before I go on anymore I'll allow you to explain your position here with some scriptural backing because I don't know if that is what you actually meant.
Bob said -
What about the perecutions throughout history against different christians? Was scripture made null and void then? Of course not. These scriptures Dan. 7; Matt 16 and Rev. 13. are compatible.
-------
We are talking specifically about the 70th week and what is the purpose of the 70th week. Bob you are completly missing the boat and need to do an in depth study on The purpose of the tribulation. We are told we told we will be persecuted at any time in any age but until you have a better understanding of God's total plan you are going to struggle with this. I suggest "God's Plan For Man" by Finis Jennings Dake. He will take you through some of the most in depth studies of Matthew 24, the purpose of the trib, the rapture and just about every single topic in the Bible and support everything with mountains of scripture that I can't even begin to duplicate here.
Also - still waiting on your scriptural answer as to who the restrainer is in Thessalonians. What does the post trib view think it is?
I've been listening to/watching Chuck Missler and Mark Eastman speaking on the great "alien deception" in the last days
apart from the "aliens" telling "abductees" and people through whom they are "channelling" information(satanic deception) that specifically Christianity-and not any other religion- is not the true faith and denying Jesus etc etc,the main thrust of their deception hinges around "explaining away" the mass disappearance of millions of people suddenly before major "earth changes" as "mother earth" cleanses the planet.
The people who disappear are not prepared, it would seem, to adapt to the changes that the new paradigm of "change and renewal" that will result----earth has rejected those people before the full force of "change" is unleashed.....
they go to major lengths to convince people that millions of people simply disappear has an explanation which cannot and should not be connected with Christians being taken away in,coincidentally according to this "channelled knowledge" the twinkling of an eye
how ironic-though not unexpected- that direct words of scripture are used in this satanic deception
isn't that strange?Or maybe not!!
Post a Comment