Rick said...
Bob,What exactly is your answer? You didn't answer the question. You created your own interpretation of what Gary said to try to suit your argument.
This is another cop out technique similar to the straw man to avoid answering a question.
Hey now let's not start to accuse each other of copping out or avoiding answering questions.
That's not nice and it is certainly not true.
I answered the question. Jesus said the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church.
Daniel and Revelation state Antichrist will prevail against the saints.
You guys are asking "How can these be compatible if the church mentioned by Jesus cannot be prevailed upon by the gates of Hell and the saints (church) mentioned in Daniel and Revelation are prevailed upon by the antichrist?
Am I correct so far?
Have I copped out, ducked or avoided the question?
Maybe you just do not like the fact that I answered you when you told Gary I wouldn't??
Let's look at your mail. You wrote:
Are YOU (not Gary), saying that Satan can not make war with the saints but the AC can?
Huh?! No I am saying the church universal will never be defeated by satan, antichrist, Hitler or anyone.. Persecuted, hunted down, killed but never defeated.
Look through history.
The persecutions, martyrdoms etc.
Was the church beaten? Did the gates of hell prevail in destroying what God had established?
No.
Likewise the persecution by the antichrist on the church of the last days may seem like a success to him and his followers but the church can never be destroyed even through death because we are in christ. Those in christ have eternal life therefore the church can never be destroyed.
Kill us and we shall still stand on the earth in the last day. Amen
Beside all this Jesus himself said in Matthew 24 and elsewhere that when he returns after the tribulation he will gather his elect from all over. So there will still be believers on the earth.
Revelation 14:13 states "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord..." speaking of those who die during the reign of the antichrist.
Barnes notes in his commentary on Revelation 14: 13 "The assurance, then, is limited to those who are sincere Christians."
I always thought that to be "in the Lord" means to be "in Christ." In other words a member of His church. Therefore according to Revelation 14:13 these people are christians...
members of the church.
Existing during the tribulation when you say the church will be absent.
Again it is you guys who are putting up straw men to support an untenable argument.
My point is and has been this: there is no scriptural justification for a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not when Jesus said he would return after the tribulation, when the angels told the disciples Jesus would return to the Mount of Olives.
You are the ones who must prove from scripture that the church is removed before the final 7 years. I know we are not appointed to wrath.
We know wrath falls on the Day of the Lord.
Most pre-tribbers say the 7 years are the Day of the Lord the time of His wrath.
So when does it begin?
Joel 2:30-31
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
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Matthew 24: 29-31
Immediately after the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
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Revelation 6
12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
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When did Jesus say this would happen?
After the tribulation.
The tribulation is not God's wrath but satan's.
Yes God pours out judgements during this time but the day of His wrath does not come until AFTER the tribulation. Scripture plainly says so.
Sun dark... after trib.
moon blood..after trib. both before the Day of the Lord
Then the world is terrified because Jesus gathers the saints and His wrath begins....after the tribulation
Scripture says so.
I could go on but I feel you will not be moved. This is sad. Read what Jesus said about His return. He said it would be after the tribulation.
He said it would be after the tribulation, after the sun turns dark and the moon turns to blood and the stars fall...then the Day of the Lord will begin as Joel, Jesus, and Revelation state.
I am not setting up straw men. Why should I when a plain reading of scripture shows exactly when these things shall be.
Read and trust others if you will but I must go by Jesus and the prophet's words. He and they said after the tribulation.
The church fathers, the disciples of the disciples said after the tribulation.
Modern prophecy teachers say before the tribulation.
Just show me where scripture says so. It doesn't.
In fact the word of God says completely the opposite.
It is you my dear brother who is setting up straw men as you have not one shred of scripture to show me Jesus returning before the tribulation. Not one. I have shown you several pointing to a post tribulational return and rapture.
I wish I was wrong. I wish there were a scripture that states He will return before the antichrist but it isn't there.
May God bless you my beloved brother.
10 comments:
Bob said
Maybe you just do not like the fact that I answered you when you told Gary I wouldn't??
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Bob, earilier today your answer was 4 words. What I didn't like was that you didn't answer. Now you deleted that 1 sentence answer, posted something up and are telling everyone that you answered and accusing me of not liking it. For someone that is coming and reading this now that didn't see what was posted earlier this looks a bit deceptive to me. Probably unintentional but why would you rearrange the timeline of our conversation to make me look like I just don't like your answer (which was a complete lack of answer 4 hours ago). lol
Rick I think there may be a problem here. Did I post a 4 word reply earlier??
I really do not remember doing that. And I have not deleted anything.
Bob,
I was just sitting laughing thinking that we must both be in error as it must have been a publishing problem. Earlier today the answer read
Okay,
So Gary is saying Satan cannot
and that was it. lol
That's what got me going. But now as I read your answer it looks like the rest of your post just wasn't there.
Sorry!
LOL...All is well. AMEN
Goodness, you are going faster than I can type. Sorry if this causes a cross-over. My post is below my response to the present post.
Bob, I have to agree with Rick. I find you misrepresent posts to fit your view. You have a tendency not to answer but put up a 'skew whiff' response.
It is rather confusing to say the least. I have said as much before. Rick called it a 'straw man', after I had said your posts were like listening to someone debate with themselves.
The picture in my mind was that grey creature from 'The Lord of the Rings'. (Precious?". Please know, this is an explanation, not an insult to your person.
Rick wrote:
Bob seems to think that the church not being mentioned after Rev 3 doesn't mean anything and that Church and Saints are both interchangable terms. But if we change the word saints to church in Revelation 13:7 then we have a huge problem with it being a complete contradiciction to Matthew 16:18.
Bob's comments to Rick, from Rev.20:7-10
Bob. Just look at verse 9 again...so the camp of the saints and the beloved city is nothing to do with the church??
Imm. Strange though it may seem, the New Jerusalem is described AS a bride coming for her husband. It may be that the city/bridegroom/bride, are connected?
In any event, The Church/Bride is reigning WITH her bridegroom. ‘She’, is ‘singular tense’ at this time, just as ‘the Body’ of Christ is ‘singular tense’.
The ‘saint’s, plural, have a different role as priests in the millennium Temple.
Bob. Where is the church then?
The Church, that unique mystery, will then be fully ‘in Christ’, the betrothal is now marriage. This consummation takes place the moment the bridegroom took his bride into the room he had prepared for her in The Father’s house.
Like a husband and wife are ‘one flesh’, so are Christ and His Bride, The Church, His Body.
It is strange that all through the New Testament saints are the church until we get to Revelation. Then they magically turn into tribulaton converts. That is not consistant.
Blessings
‘Saints’ are all of God’s people throughout the ages.
There are Old Testament saints e.g Psalm 16:5, 116:15. This includes saints in the New Testament who died before the day of Pentecost when the Church was revealed. Stephen and John the Baptist are in this group.
There are the Church saints. The death and resurrection of Christ had to happen before ‘saint’s could be a part of this group, after which The Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost; the Church saints company will be complete at the Rapture.
There are the tribulation saints. This group forms after the Rapture of the Church, many will die in the Tribulation. Those who survive until the 2nd Coming are those who will go on into the millennium and repopulate the earth.
No magic required. The term, ‘Saint’s and ‘elect’ are interchangeable. They are what they are and do not change into anything else. This is definitely consistent, no changes have been made.
With respect, I mean no offence, but, until Bob understands the principle of ‘context’, he will continue with his circular reasoning.
Bob said;
My point is and has been this: there is no scriptural justification for a pre-tribulation rapture.
Not when Jesus said he would return after the tribulation, when the angels told the disciples Jesus would return to the Mount of Olives.
You are the ones who must prove from scripture that the church is removed before the final 7 years. I know we are not appointed to wrath.
Imm. Oh dear, yet still more of the same --
I’m afraid the burden of proof falls on you Bob to provide scripture that says the church does go through the tribulation. Especially as you admit you know we are not appointed to wrath. Where is the wrath of God if not in the Tribulation?
We have provided evidence of pre.trib from the full council of God. Your only offering so far is to keep saying Matt.24 is your ‘proof’. This, after you have been shown repeatedly that the context of the message is for Israel, not the church.
The Church did not exist then Bob. It was still a ‘mystery’.
However, I do feel sorry for you as your Post supporters are doing little to back you up. Unless they are loading the corks in the background that is? Lol
Spooky this. I wonder if any one will see this, or be bothered. I think I may be talking to myself after all. Yoo, hoo! Anybody out there?
Bob said -
"I wish I was wrong. I wish there were a scripture that states He will return before the antichrist but it isn't there"
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Christ doesn't "return" as you keep saying. We are caught up in the air with him. He returns when he touches down on the Mount. There are 2 completely differnt descriptions to these events which scripture plainly shows. someone already covered that in depth so I won't again.
Bob - question for you again. Who is the restrainer mentioned in Thessalonians. Let's start there
Bob -
Could you also tackle these 16 points while you are at it. And I can show you in depth scriptural proof for #14 to support it. Waiting to see your post trib answer to who is #14 though
16 Proofs of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture
by Kent Crockett
Proof #1: Revelation 19:11-21 doesn't mention a resurrection.
The rapture is a resurrection of those "in Christ" (1 Thess. 4:13-18). Isn't it a little bit odd that in Rev. 19:11-21, which is the clearest picture of the second coming of Christ, there is no mention of a resurrection? The rapture will be the biggest event since the resurrection of Jesus where hundreds of millions of Christians will be resurrected and translated, yet there isn't any mention here. Don't you think it deserves at least one verse? The rapture isn't mentioned because it doesn't happen at the second coming.
Proof #2: Zechariah 14:1-15 doesn't mention a resurrection.
This is an Old Testament picture of Jesus returning to earth at the second coming. Again, no mention of a resurrection.
Proof #3: Two different pictures are painted.
In the Old Testament, there were two different pictures painted of the Messiah—one suffering (Isa. 53:2-10, Ps. 22:6-8, 11-18) and one reigning as King (Ps. 2:6-12, Zech. 14:9,16). As we look back on these scriptures, we see they predicted two separate comings of the Messiah—the 1st coming as a suffering Messiah and the 2nd coming (still future) as a reigning King.
In the New Testament, we have another picture added. Again, we have two pictures painted which don’t look the same. These two different descriptions of Jesus’ coming point to two separate events we call "the rapture" and "the second coming."
Proof #4: The Known Day and the Unknown Day
Concerning the return of Jesus, the Bible presents a day we can't know and a day we can know. Matthew 25:13 says Jesus will return at an unknown time, while Revelation 12:6 says the Jews will have to wait 1,260 days for the Lord to return. The 1,260 days begins when the Antichrist stands in the Temple and declares himself to be God (Matt. 24:15-21, 2 Thess. 2:4) This event will take place at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation (Dan 9:27). The Antichrist has authority to rule for 42 months, which is 1,260 days (Rev. 13:4) and will be destroyed by Jesus at His second coming (Rev. 19:20, 2 Thess. 2:8). The known and unknown days must happen at different times, meaning they are two separate events.
Proof #5: A door open in heaven (Revelation 4:1)
The door in heaven is opened to let John into heaven. We believe John's call into heaven is prophetic of the church being caught up at the rapture (see proof #6). In Revelation 19:11, heaven is opened again, this time to let the armies which are already in heaven out. This is the Church, which has been raptured at a previous time, following Jesus out of heaven at the second coming.
Proof #6: "Come up here." (Revelation 4:1)
A voice called for the apostle John to "Come up here," and immediately he was in heaven. This could be a prophetic reference to the rapture of the Church. The words "Come up here" are spoken to the two witnesses who are killed in the middle of the Tribulation, who are resurrected and ascend into heaven (Rev. 11:12). Therefore, the phrase "Come up here" could mean the church is raptured in Rev. 4:1. The word "church" is mentioned 22 times in Rev. 1-3, but is not mentioned again until Rev. 22:17.
Proof #7: The 24 elders have their crowns.
After John is called up into heaven, he sees the 24 elders with their crowns (Rev. 4:4-10). We know that Christians will receive their rewards (crowns) at the rapture (2 Tim. 4:8, 1 Pet. 5:4). We will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous (Luke 14:14). The elders couldn't receive their crowns unless the resurrection (rapture) has taken place.
Proof #8 Holy ones are already with Jesus in heaven (Zech. 14:5, Rev. 19:14)
The armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, follow Jesus out of heaven at His second coming (Rev. 19:14, Zech. 14:5, Col. 3:4). These are not angels because Rev. 19:8 tells us the fine linen is the righteousness of the saints. In order to come out of heaven we first have to go in, indicating a previous rapture.
Proof #9: Kept from the hour of testing (Rev. 3:10)
Revelation 3:10 says we will be kept out of the hour of testing which will come upon the whole earth (the Tribulation). Some have wrongly believed "keep" means to keep through, or protect through the Tribulation. Suppose you approach a high voltage area with a sign that says, "Keep Out." Does that mean you can enter and be protected? No, it means you are forbidden from entering the area. But this verse also says He will keep us from the hour of testing. It is not just the testing, but the time period. If a student is excused from a test, he still may have to sit in the class while others take the test. But if he is excused from the hour of testing, he can go home. The Church will be called home before the hour of testing.
Proof #10: Angels don't resurrect people when they gather them for judgment.
When the angels are sent forth to gather the elect at the second coming (Matt. 24:29-31), some have wrongly interpreted this as the rapture. There is one huge problem with this interpretation. If we are resurrected at this time, why would we need angels to gather us? In the resurrection, we will be like the angels (Matt. 22:30), able to travel in the air at will. Obviously, these people who are gathered are not resurrected, therefore it can't be the rapture. No one would claim the wicked are raptured at this time, yet Matthew 13:39-41, 49 says the angels will not only gather the elect, but also the wicked. This gathering is not a resurrection.
Proof #11: Both the wicked and the righteous can't be taken first.
First Thessalonians 4:13-17 says the righteous are taken and the wicked are left behind. Matthew 13:30, 49 says the wicked are taken first and righteous are left behind. This points to two separate events, the rapture and the second coming.
Proof #12: Jesus returns from the wedding.
When Jesus returns to earth at the second coming, He will return from a wedding (Luke 12:36). At the rapture, Jesus is married to His bride, the Church. After the wedding, He will return to earth.
Proof #13: Jesus will receive us to Himself, not us to receive Him (John 14:2-3).
Jesus said He would prepare a place for the Church in heaven, then He would come again to receive us to Himself. Why would Jesus prepare a place for us in heaven and then not take us there? At the rapture, He will come to receive us to Himself, "that where I am (heaven), there you may be also." If the rapture occurred at the same time as the second coming, we would go up to the clouds and then immediately come back to earth. That would contradict John 14:2-3.
Proof #14: The one who restrains is taken out of the way.
In 2 Thess. 2:6-7, Paul says "the one who restrains will be taken out of the way" before the Antichrist can be revealed. We believe this refers to the rapture because the Church is clearly the biggest obstacle to the Antichrist becoming a world ruler.
Proof #15: The separation of the sheep and goats (Matt. 25:31-46)
If the rapture occurred at the second coming, why would the sheep and the goats need to be separated immediately after the second coming? A rapture at the second coming would have already separated the sheep and the goats. With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture will need to be separated after the second coming.
Proof #16: Who will populate the Millennium?
If the rapture occurs at the second coming and the wicked are cast into hell at that time, who will be left to populate the millennium? Only people in their natural (non-resurrected) bodies will be able to have children (Matt. 22:30). With a Pre-Tribulation rapture, the people saved after the rapture who are alive at the second coming will populate the earth during the Millennium.
Quote from Bob
I am not setting up straw men. Why should I when a plain reading of scripture shows exactly when these things shall be.
Read and trust others if you will but I must go by Jesus and the prophet's words. He and they said after the tribulation.
The church fathers, the disciples of the disciples said after the tribulation.
Modern prophecy teachers say before the tribulation.
Just show me where scripture says so. It doesn't.
In fact the word of God says completely the opposite.
It is you my dear brother who is setting up straw men as you have not one shred of scripture to show me Jesus returning before the tribulation. Not one. I have shown you several pointing to a post tribulational return and rapture.
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This is one of the reasons I do not like getting involved in an argument over pre trib post rapture, it brings out the worst in men especialy Christian people. Starting as a debate then shifting to I know because I read the scriptures correctly, and your all wrong, of course the man with the whistle blows it loudest when he is in charge of the orchestra LOL
Anyway I find all this very off putting, I believe also that anyone who believes in a post rapture can tell exactly the time of the return of the Lord to the air, all they have to do is count the days from the ''Abomination of desolation'' and you could tell all but the time and the day, that's if you know the scriptures concerning Jacobs trouble, not the Church's trouble but the people of the Book.
So again just to clarify, no man knows.
I find it very difficult also that a Christian would think that God would not account him/her righteous just as Noah and Lot.
I find this so unproductive if a non christian is reading, thinking 'Oh well ive plenty time i'll go eat drink and be merry God isn't coming back yet'...
very sad, very sad...
The kingdom is like ten virgins who went
And took their lamps to a wedding event
Five were foolish and five were wise
The wise took oil perhaps pint-size
The foolish took none they didn't prepare
For the groom took his time before he got there
They all became drowsy and fell asleep.
No sound was heard, no not a peep
Till midnight did come and someone cried out.
"Here's the bridegroom. You must come out!"
The virgins woke up only to find
The wise could see while the foolish were blind
For they used up the oil they needed to see
They had taken the journey much too carefree
They asked the wise to give them some
But the wise told them where they could buy some from
But while they journeyed to buy the oil
The groom arrived which wasted their toil
For the wise went in and the door was shut closed
The foolish could not enter as they had supposed
They said, "Sir, Open the door for us too!"
But he replied, "I don't know you."
Therefore keep watch, let the Spirit empower.
For you do not know the day or the hour.
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