HAMAS FIRES LONG RANGE ROCKETS ON ISRAEL

Long-Range Rocket Fired at Yavne

by Hana Levi Julian

Military censors cleared for publication Tuesday the news that Gaza terrorists for the first time unleashed long-range Grad-type 122-mm. Katyusha rockets a day earlier in attacks on the cities of Ashdod and Yavneh.

According to an IDF spokesperson, one of the missiles exploded on the southern outskirts of the city of Yavneh, approximately 9-10 km north of the port city of Ashdod, and "the furthest a missile has reached from Gaza."

Yavneh, which is more than 40 kilometers from Gaza, is only 15 kilometers south of Tel Aviv.

Israel Police spokesman Micky Rosenfeld said a second missile of the same type was also used in the attack on Ashdod, home to the nation's second-largest port.

"The rockets were advanced Grad-type missiles," Rosenfeld said, "the longest-range rockets that have been fired to date as far as we are concerned." Until this point, Hamas terrorists have launched medium-range Grad-type Katyusha rockets at Israel, which have had the capability of reaching only as far as the port city of Ashkelon.

Western Negev under SiegeRocket barrages continued Tuesday on the western Negev city of Sderot, located less than one kilometer from Gaza.

A house in the center of the city sustained a direct hit from a Kassam rocket during the late morning hours. One man suffered shrapnel wounds in the face during the attacks, and three other people were treated for severe emotional trauma.Sderot residents again raced for cover about two hours later as two short-range Kassam rockets exploded in open areas around the city. A third rocket landed near a kibbutz in the Sha'ar HaNegev region, and a fourth slammed into an open area next to a kibbutz in the Sdot Negev region as well.

Kassams also fell near Ofakim and a community in the Eshkol region.

Gaza terrorists also managed to shoot themselves as well; a rocket launched by Hamas operatives fell short and exploded inside the terrorist-controlled region. No Israeli citizens were injured in the attacks, and no damage was reported.

THE REAL WINNER IS........

There recently was the death of a 98-year-old lady named Irena Sendler.

During WWII, Irena, got permission to work in the Warsaw Ghetto, as a Plumbing/Sewer specialist. She had an ulterior motive.... She KNEW what the Nazi's plans were for the Jews, (being German).

Irena smuggled infants out in the bottom of her tool box she carried, and she also carried in the back of her truck a Burlap sack, (for larger kids). She also had a dog in the back that she trained to bark when the Nazi soldiers let her in and out of the ghetto.

The soldiers, of course, wanted nothing to do with the dog, and the barking covered the kids/infants noises.

During her time and course of doing this, she managed to smuggle out and save 2500 kids/infants. She was caught, and the Nazi's broke both her legs and arms and beat her severely.

Irena kept a record of the names of all the kids she smuggled out and kept them in a glass jar, buried under a tree in her back yard. After the war, she tried to locate any parents that may have survived it, and reunited the family.

Most, of course, had been gassed. Those kids she helped were placed into foster family homes or adopted

Last year Irena was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize....

She LOST.

Al Gore won for doing a slide show on Global Warming.

This despite the FACT that the year 2008 has been the coldest year since 2000.

Despite the FACT that it can be shown the earth goes through periods of warming and cooling due mainly to sunspot activity. The period we are experiencing now is no different.

Despite the FACT that in the years following WWII the use of fossil fuels and co2 gasses increased because of increased industrialisation..........yet the earth grew cooler!

http://www.garagetv.be/video-galerij/blancostemrecht/The_Great_Global_Warming_Swindle_Documentary_Film.aspx

Al Gore forgot to mention that....didn't he?

Yet he won a peace prize and a real heroine failed to gain the recognition she so richly deserved in her last year of life.

Instead the prize went to a man who spends more of the earth's resources warming his home in one month than most Americans use in a whole year. http://www.snopes.com/politics/bush/house.asp

All because he showed a flawed theory that thousands of scientists disagree with.

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=84421

But one the NWO guys support.

What a tragedy.

ISRAEL STRIKES BACK

Before blaming Israel for the strength of the current attack on the terrorist regime of Hamas, please remember Israel has been under rocket bombardment for around 2 years from Hamas in Gaza. Ever since she gave Hamas the land the palestinians and the West demanded she give. Since that time southern Israel has been under daily rocket attacks, which your Western news fails in the main to report.

Now when Israel finally says "enough" and goes after the terrorists, who by the way hide behind masks, children and innocent civillians and hide their more powerful rockets beneath Gaza city Hospital, the West cries "Stop this attack...cease fire."

Why were our Western governments so quiet for the last two years when Hamas daily sent rockets into Sderot and now Ashkelon?

It surely couldn't be because they have a bias toward the palestinians, could it. They are now telling Israel to negotiate with Hamas. Tell me please, how do you negotiate with an organisation totally dedicated to your extinction?

Everything is Israel's fault we hear. If only they would give the land to the palestinians then we could see a two state solution and there would be peace.

Are we stupid? Hamas and Fatah want the Jewish State dead! Do people today not realise that Israel sits on 8% of Palestine? The rest is in Palestinian and Jordanian hands.

Google a map of palestine in 1917 and you'll see for yourselves. Israel gives land for peace and always gets rockets and suicide bombers in return.
Yet so many believe the Middle East problem is all Israel's fault. Crazy!

I forget who said it but it is true "If the palestinians laid down their weapons today there would be peace. If Israel laid down her weapons there would be no more Israel."

I thoroughly recommend a couple of books to you all as a real eye openers: "The Secret War Against The Jews." Also "From Time Immemorial."

There are many palestinians, many Islamic people who just want a quiet life and peace. But there are the radicals who want war, bloodshed and death. Even if it costs the lives of the innocent.

I would guess you haven't seen the following news item reporting how an Israeli Hospital is treating wounded palestinians.

I sure Hamas would welcome wounded Israelis....wouln't they??

Besieged Israeli hospital treats injured Gaza Arabs

Barzilai Hospital in the southern Israel coastal city of Ashkelon on Sunday admitted dozens of Palestinian Arabs wounded in Israel's aerial bombardment of nearby Gaza.
Ironically, many of the Gaza patients must be treated under emergency circumstances as Ashkelon continues to come under Palestinian rocket fire.
Doctors at Barzilai said that regardless of the situation and of the fact that their patients come from a territory effectively at war with Israel, they have an obligation to treat whoever needs to be treated.

Also read this excellent inciteful article by David Hornik:

Israel Strikes Back
By P. David HornikFrontPageMagazine.com 12/29/2008
For months now, the Palestinian terror group Hamas has been shelling Israeli cities with little in the way of an assertive response. But this weekend, which capped a week when at least 300 Hamas-fired rockets and mortars pounded southern Israel, the Israeli government has at last decided to retaliate.

“Operation Cast Lead” opened on Saturday with a carefully planned, perfectly coordinated, and devastating air strike against Hamas targets in Gaza. The strike, which involved more than 100 aircraft and occurred in two waves, destroyed dozens of military and police headquarters, training camps, and above-ground and underground weapons facilities.

If Hamas estimates are to be believed, approximately 200 Palestinians have been killed. Of these, a great majority appear to have been terrorist combatants. Israel has also bombed the Islamic University in Gaza, and is now threatening a full-scale invasion.

The weekend offensive marks the third time in less than a decade that Israel has opened a war whose proximate cause is terrorist aggression but which was actually fostered by Israel’s own self-delusive policies. For instance, the second intifada, which broke out in September 2000, was made possible by Israel’s Oslo-era policy of inviting terrorist armies, including Hamas, to entrench itself in the West Bank and Gaza. By allowing Hamas to build up its political power base and military capabilities, Israel virtually guaranteed that it would be drawn into a future conflict in Gaza. A similar cycle of cause-and-effect underpinned the second Lebanon War, which broke out in July 2006. That conflict was made possible in large part by Israel’s May 2000 withdrawal from southern Lebanon.

Likewise, Israel’s latest military campaign is the inevitable result of Israel’s ill-conceived “disengagement” from Gaza in August 2005. The flaw of the earlier withdrawal was starkly revealed this Sunday, when sorties against Hamas targets destroyed no fewer than 40 smuggling tunnels between Gaza and the Sinai. These tunnels were a testament to the terrorist activity that Israel’s withdrawal had made possible.

Seen against the background of Hamas’s resurgence, this weekend's successful strikes are long overdue. So, too, is the chastening that they signal within Israel’s political leadership – the triumvirate of outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister and Labor Party Chairman Ehud Barak, and Foreign Minister and Kadima leader Tzipi Livni – which appears finally to have grasped that Hamas cannot be stopped with economic pressure and temporary ceasefires.

As Barak told Fox News this weekend, “For us to be asked to have a ceasefire with Hamas is like asking you to have a ceasefire with al-Qaeda. It's something we cannot really accept.”

Meanwhile, Livni reportedly said that Islamists must be drummed out of Gaza’s leadership.This newfound resoluteness is to be welcomed. But the fact that Israel’s leaders have come to realize the urgency of confronting terrorism does not compensate for the dismal failures of their past performance. Reports indicate that Saturday’s strike relied on lengthy planning and intelligence gathering, but they don’t settle the question of how the government could have waited so long to act – particularly when 250,000 Israeli citizens had been living so long under a relentless barrage of rockets and mortar fire.

The new Israeli offensive must also be considered in the context of the Olmert government’s bungled war against Hezbollah in 2006, when the limited success of an initial aerial bombardment was succeeded by a less successful ground offensive and, ultimately, a tenuous ceasefire.

Early evidence suggests that the government has recognized its past mistakes, and is intent on avoiding them. Thus Olmert, Barak, and Livni have defined Operation Cast Lead’s goals narrowly, eschewing the bombastic statements that the Olmert government made when the second Lebanon War erupted. Operation Cast Lead is designed to put an end to Hamas's rocket fire, terrorist activity, and arms smuggling.

However, questions abound. Will Barak and Livni follow through with their rhetoric about toppling Hamas, or will they be content to leave it in power after a temporary show of strength? If the latter, who will stop the weapons smuggling or prevent Hamas from recuperating militarily and preparing to drag Israel into its next confrontation?

Just as pressingly, who will take over if Israel does depose Hamas in a ground invasion? On the one hand, Olmert, Barak, and Livni remain allergic to the idea of Israel’s long-term reoccupation of parts or all of Gaza. But the possible alternatives are troubling. For instance, the experience of the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon in southern Lebanon, which shields instead of thwarts Hezbollah’s ongoing empowerment, argues against the idea of NATO or other international forces taking over Gaza. Similarly, Israel should avoid replacing Hamas with Mahmoud Abbas and his Fatah-run Palestinian Authority.

Gaza’s transfer from anti-Israeli Hamas to anti-Israeli Fatah is in fact no solution, because even if Fatah presently lacks Hamas's energy and discipline, it can nevertheless be relied on to instill hatred of Israel in future generations of Palestinians, just as it currently does in the West Bank.

Still another troubling possibility is that, with Israeli elections tentatively scheduled for February 10, a perceived successful outcome to the war would help the current government defeat the Likud party, most of whose current lineup opposed the “disengagement” that created the current crisis in the first place. Given the Likud leadership’s foresight in this regard, it would be unfortunate if the next government did not share its grasp of the threats to Israeli security – especially at a time when, however grave the Gaza threat, the incomparably greater Iranian threat could require critical decision-making by the spring of 2009.

It is hard to trust the very people who got Israel into its mess in Gaza to get the country out of it. A viable solution to Gaza may involve Israel reoccupying its most strategic parts—the Gaza-Sinai border and the northern Strip from which most of the rockets are launched—while putting any Gaza regime on notice that continued aggression will result in further Israeli conquests.

While such a solution may seem uncompromising, it is in fact greatly preferable to the successive retreats and empty “ceasefires” that have defined Israeli policy in Gaza to date. Unfortunately, it is a solution that requires the kind of political courage that has not been the hallmark of Israel’s current leadership.

P. David Hornik is a freelance writer and translator living in Tel Aviv. He blogs at http://pdavidhornik.typepad.com/.

RUSSIAN DEFENSE MISSILES DELIVERED TO IRAN'S NUCLEAR SITES

This news just in from DEBKAfile:

DEBKAfile - We start where the media stop

Russian S-300 anti-air weapon already delivered to Iran
DEBKAfile Special Report

December 18, 2008, 7:39 PM (GMT+02:00)
Despite the efforts of US and Israeli leaders, Moscow has begun delivering the highly sophisticated medium-range air defense S-300 system to Iran for securing its nuclear and strategic sites against potential attack.

The RIA news agency reported Wednesday night, Dec. 18: "Moscow has earlier met its obligations to supply Tor-M1 (short-range) systems to Iran and is currently implementing its contract to deliver S-300 systems."

DEBKAfile's military sources disclose the S-300 deliveries began two weeks ago.
Their installation, coinciding with the return home of members of Iranian air defense officers from training in Russia, means that air or missile attacks on Iranian sites will henceforth be extremely difficult and carry a high price.

On 9th October, DEBKAfile's Moscow sources reported that Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert failed in the key mission of his trip to persuade Russian leaders to refrain from selling this advanced weapon to Iran and Syria.

On July 9, US Secretary of State Robert Gates said: "Based on what I know, it's highly unlikely that those air defense missiles would be in Iranian hands any time soon." Clearly, Gates was misinformed and his intelligence wrong, since five months on, those missiles are on their way to Iran.

While both the Bush administration and Israeli leaders insisted that a military option remained on the table if Iran persisted in its nuclear weapons program, neither took into account that Tehran was not deterred or standing idle.

This week, the Israeli defense ministry announced that Amos Gilead, a high official, would travel to Moscow Wednesday, Dec. 17 in a final bid to hold the Kremlin's hand. But Olmert and defense minister Ehud Barak had missed another boat.

DEBKAfile's military and intelligence sources report that after Iran, Moscow will install the S-300 in Syria, focusing on securing the Russian naval bases going up in the Mediterranean port of Tartous.

By selling these countries top-line weaponry, Moscow is strengthening its military presence and influence in two Middle East countries of especial interest to the United States and Israel – a tactic Soviet Russian employed in the Cold War.

Copyright 2000-2008 DEBKAfile. All Rights Reserved.

OLMERT, NETANYAHU WANT TALKS WITH SYRIA OVER GOLAN

Friends it looks as if 2009 and onward are going to be very interesting years indeed as the outgoing Israeli prime minister Ehud Olmert and possibly future Israeli prime minister Benyamin Netanyahu are both keen to pursue a peace deal with Syria over the Golan Heights, Israel's most strategic line of defense in the north.

How can anyone trust Syria when the government: was recently caught developing a nuclear site with North Korean aid; supports Iran and is allowing Russian naval vessels into their waters after creating the deep sea port for the Russian navy?

Note the final lines in the following article from the Jerusalem Post:

Olmert: Peace with Syria is feasible
Dec. 18, 2008Herb Keinon , THE JERUSALEM POST

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who announced suddenly that he will go to Turkey for talks on Monday, said Thursday evening that "a peace treaty between Israel and Syria is feasible" and would result in "significant advantages" for Israel.

"A peace treaty would lower the possibility of war, break the strategic ties between Damascus and Teheran, lead to the expulsion of the Islamic Jihad and Hamas headquarters from Syria, and would stop the cash flow to Hizbullah," Olmert told a conference of the Institute for National Security Studies at Tel Aviv University.

"Syria does not necessarily want to be part of the axis of evil," he said. "Syria wants to reconnect with the West and the United States.
"Removing Syria from the axis of evil is an Israeli interest."
The prime minister said that although he could not guarantee the success of a peace process with Damascus, it was important to try.
"How will we know if we don't try? How can we try if we are not prepared to take any risks?" he said.

Olmert also said that the indirect Israel-Syria talks mediated by Turkey could lead to direct negotiations. His comments came after his office announced unexpectedly that he would meet with his Turkish counterpart, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in Ankara next week.
Government spokesman Mark Regev said the two leaders would discuss regional issues. However, he did not elaborate.

According to a statement put out by the Prime Minister's Office, Olmert spoke with Erdogan on the phone on Wednesday night, and the two decided to meet on Monday to discuss "bilateral and regional issues including the diplomatic processes in the region."

One diplomatic official said that although the Syrian track would undoubtedly be discussed, the visit to Turkey was one of a number of farewell visits Olmert has made recently to friendly countries.

Since becoming a lame duck prime minister with the election of Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni as Kadima head in September, Olmert has traveled to Russia, the US, and Britain. He returned from a two-day visit to London on Wednesday.

Likud Chairman and opposition leader Binyamin Netanyahu on Thursday evening said that he supports diplomatic talks with Syria and intends to continue contacts with Damascus, Army Radio reported.

However, Netanyahu said that Israel's security needs require an Israeli presence in the Golan Heights. He reportedly made the remarks at a meeting with French President Nicholas Sarkozy in Paris.

Turkey has been mediating peace talks between Israel and Syria, but MKs from across the political spectrum have repeatedly said the negotiations should be put on hold until a new government is established. Damascus has also reportedly said that it would prefer to postpone further negotiations until that time.

The fourth and last round of indirect talks in Turkey was held in July. A fifth round was put off following the resignation of Yoram Turbowicz, Olmert's chief-of-staff who was heading the talks.
In October, speaking at a news conference in Ankara with visiting Spanish Foreign Minister Miguel Angel Moratinos, Turkish Foreign Minister Ali Babacan said there had been progress in the talks and that both sides were happy about the point they had reached.

On Tuesday, Reuters reported that Damascus had drafted a document defining the boundaries of the Golan Heights and which puts Syria on the northeastern Kinneret shore.

Jpost.com staff and AP contributed to this report.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO NETANYAHU?

Whatever has happened to Benjamin Netanyahu?

This is Israel's former prime minister who vowed that if he ever became Israel's prime minister again he would call a halt to negotiations with the Palestinians until they rejected violence.

He was seen by many supporters of Israel's right to her ancient homeland as the nation's only hope. A strong man who would not back down and negotiate under pressure without concessions being given by the other side.

But after one meeting with former British prime minister Tony Blair, "Bibi" suddenly changed his tune and is now up for negotiaing with the Palestinian camp.

For a deeper look at Netanyahu and his allies read this insightful article from Emmanuel A. Winston:

BIBI, ARE YOU SHAMING YOURSELF & YOUR NATION?
by Emanuel A. Winston, Mid East analyst & commentator

Likud held their primary election with a preferred list of candidates voted on by the Likud members. Former Prime Minister Binyamin (Bibi) Netanyahu had a reserved spot on the list who would be the next Prime Minister IF Likud could garner enough votes. But, the democratic election wasn’t good enough for Bibi because there were apparently too many candidates who won positions that could deny him to dictate without challenging the policy of the nation.
Bibi set about conniving with some committees to undo the election results and push his favorites to replace those who won a higher spot on the ticket and were politically to the Right, ("Right" - defined as those who would keep Israel safe, whole, Jewish and sovereign) - which was what Likud always stood for.

Bibi’s main target was Moshe Feiglin and those in his camp. Feiglin had been voted 20th on the Likud list and, therefore, would hold a guaranteed position in the next government.
But, Netanyahu tried to abrogate the terms of the election and push Feiglin to spot #36. This was political crookery, risen to a new level of hypocrisy. Bibi also is attempting to move all those who are considered Feiglin’s supporters to lower spots on the list if not out altogether.

What are we to deduce from Bibi’s frantic attack on those who were against the Olmert, Livni, Barak, Peres doctrine of appeasement and abandoning the Land to the Muslim Arabs?
Conventional wisdom would tell us that Bibi is planning to follow the same course as Sharon and Olmert when their promises were made and all were broken.

Is Bibi quietly linked to the Rice State Department program of the failed Road Map?

Does he wish to form the same kind of toothless government in the Israeli Knesset and Cabinet who will go along with whatever he dictates?

Does he wish to silence and intimidate all those who would vociferously object to surrendering the Golan Heights to Bashar Assad, current President of Syria?

Similarly, does he wish to repeat the debacle in Judea and Samaria, as was done in Gaza - namely, driving the Jews out?

We all know from Bibi’s past as Prime Minister that he rules with an insufferable arrogance, waving his big cigar, like a scepter of royalty. Does he not already know that Likud Party loyalists don't trust his political goals?

When Bibi abandoned 80% of Hebron to Yassir Arafat, in collusion with President Bill Clinton and the U.S. State Department, he demonstrated a casual attitude of de-valuing ancient Jewish Land and the burial place of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Sarah, Rebecca, and Leah in the Cave of our Patriarchs.

Hopefully, the higher committee of Likud will not allow Bibi to dismiss a democratic vote and to adopt a dictatorial stance, even before he is voted into office. If he already believes he can rule as a dictator, much the same as Yitzhak Rabin, Shimon Peres, Ehud Barak, Arik Sharon and now Ehud Olmert - then imagine what he will do once elected into office.

Granted the Olmert, Livni, Barak, Peres quartet led the most incompetent crooked government Israel ever had and must be removed.

However, unless Bibi withdraws his aggressive plans to overthrow many Rightist LIkud candidates, the message he sends is that, under the cloak of Likud, he may be even worse.

I recall having hopes for Olmert when he ruled Jerusalem as Mayor - only to fail miserably as a guiding leader of the Jewish nation when he became Prime Minister.

Once, a long time ago, I had very high hopes for Bibi Netanyahu whom I considered a friend - only to discover that, with his great vocabulary and gift with words to impress and sway Westerners, came a weak spine and little belief in the Land G-d gave to the Jewish people forever.

I also considered Arik Sharon a friend and a valiant General when I met him during the 1973 War on the Sinai Desert. When he ran for Prime Minister, I believed he could make a difference in defending the Jewish nation against Western pressures to fold and accept Islamo-facism.

I considered him a friend and a lover of the Israeli people and the Land of Israel - until (against all his promises and stated beliefs), he planned to expel, evict and evacuate 10,000 Jewish men, women and children from 21 communities of the thriving Gush Katif communities and 4 Northern Samarian communities.

Ehud Olmert implemented those plans - after Sharon was struck down by strokes.

At this point, one can only believe in those Jews who are observant and who love the Land as do the pioneering settlers.

We already know that all of the Leftist Kadima Party, joined at the hip to the Labor Party - is committed to re-partitioning the Jewish nation and surrendering vital defensive land to Muslim Arab Palestinians who are Terrorists, dedicated to killing Jews.

The Muslim children’s education and TV from age 3 trains them to hate and kill Jews. This is an obscene form of child abuse.

We await the change of governments because we hope, or at least think nothing could be worse. We all hoped that an older and more mature Netanyahu would shed his arrogance and learn from his past mistakes....particularly his 80% abandonment of Hebron.

Perhaps Bibi is the only candidate to vote for who can compete with Kadima and, perhaps, Likud will keep him contained from dictatorially capitulating to pressures from the U.S.,U.N., E.U., ‘et al’.

They are all dominated by the Arab and Muslim countries who demand that Israel give up Judea, Samaria, the Jordan Valley, the Golan Heights and those parts of Jerusalem that were occupied and desecrated by Jordan for 19 years from 1948 to 1967.

If it turns out that he is in collusion with the U.S. State Department, then he too must be tried for treason - before those vital, strategic and religious holy sites are lost for the foreseeable future.

Let Bibi know that, IF he takes the path of betrayal and perfidy, you will pray daily for him to be judged to share the fates of Sharon and Olmert.

[P.S. I really hated writing this article but, hopefully, Bibi will be sufficiently impacted with a flood of objections to his first public big mistake that he will be restrained from violating the peoples’ trust, knowing that he could fall.]

###
Netanyahu to the Jerusalem Post: "I’m in charge, I set the policies" by Gil Hoffman, Jerusalem Post December 11, 2008
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1228728162641&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

TO MY PRE-TRIBULATION FRIENDS...ANY LEFT?

Guys, please, please can we have this discussion on the post trib forum rather than here?http://bob-mitchell-post-trib-forum.blogspot.com/

I want to keep them apart for obvious reasons. This site is for news etc.

Not for debate. I am having to copy and paste your points onto both sites in order to be fair and then sit down and attempt to answer your interesting and challenging posts.

Imm. I am reading your comments as well as everyone elses. Thanks for keeping the points orderly and not over long.

Rick I am really beginning to like you a lot. You are challenging but not nasty with it.

I'll try not to go into circular reasoning as has been said of me recently. Forgive me please if I don't see it. Thanks for pointing it out to me Imm.

At present I am deeply involved with preparing for my brothers funeral in a few days as I have to give the eulogy. I value your prayers very much for this. So can we put the pre-post comments on hold for aboiut 3 or 4 days while I get myself and my wife and daughters through the funeral etc.

Besides which you guys have simply poured a ton of stuff onto me and I need a clear head to get down to properly answering you .

The post tribbers seem to have deserted me ..any one there with a post trib comment?? Hallooo?

Thanks.

A PROBLEM?

Rick I think there may be a problem here. Did I post a 4 word reply earlier??
I really do not remember doing that.

And I have not deleted anything.

SETTING UP STRAW MEN...BUT WHO IS DOING IT?

Rick said...

Bob,What exactly is your answer? You didn't answer the question. You created your own interpretation of what Gary said to try to suit your argument.

This is another cop out technique similar to the straw man to avoid answering a question.

Hey now let's not start to accuse each other of copping out or avoiding answering questions.

That's not nice and it is certainly not true.

I answered the question. Jesus said the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church.

Daniel and Revelation state Antichrist will prevail against the saints.

You guys are asking "How can these be compatible if the church mentioned by Jesus cannot be prevailed upon by the gates of Hell and the saints (church) mentioned in Daniel and Revelation are prevailed upon by the antichrist?

Am I correct so far?

Have I copped out, ducked or avoided the question?

Maybe you just do not like the fact that I answered you when you told Gary I wouldn't??

Let's look at your mail. You wrote:
Are YOU (not Gary), saying that Satan can not make war with the saints but the AC can?

Huh?! No I am saying the church universal will never be defeated by satan, antichrist, Hitler or anyone.. Persecuted, hunted down, killed but never defeated.

Look through history.

The persecutions, martyrdoms etc.

Was the church beaten? Did the gates of hell prevail in destroying what God had established?

No.

Likewise the persecution by the antichrist on the church of the last days may seem like a success to him and his followers but the church can never be destroyed even through death because we are in christ. Those in christ have eternal life therefore the church can never be destroyed.

Kill us and we shall still stand on the earth in the last day. Amen

Beside all this Jesus himself said in Matthew 24 and elsewhere that when he returns after the tribulation he will gather his elect from all over. So there will still be believers on the earth.

Revelation 14:13 states "blessed are the dead who die in the Lord..." speaking of those who die during the reign of the antichrist.

Barnes notes in his commentary on Revelation 14: 13 "The assurance, then, is limited to those who are sincere Christians."

I always thought that to be "in the Lord" means to be "in Christ." In other words a member of His church. Therefore according to Revelation 14:13 these people are christians...

members of the church.

Existing during the tribulation when you say the church will be absent.

Again it is you guys who are putting up straw men to support an untenable argument.

My point is and has been this: there is no scriptural justification for a pre-tribulation rapture.

Not when Jesus said he would return after the tribulation, when the angels told the disciples Jesus would return to the Mount of Olives.

You are the ones who must prove from scripture that the church is removed before the final 7 years. I know we are not appointed to wrath.

We know wrath falls on the Day of the Lord.

Most pre-tribbers say the 7 years are the Day of the Lord the time of His wrath.

So when does it begin?

Joel 2:30-31

30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
--------------------------------------------------
Matthew 24: 29-31

Immediately after the Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his chosen from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revelation 6

12. And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
-----------------------------------------------------------------
When did Jesus say this would happen?

After the tribulation.

The tribulation is not God's wrath but satan's.

Yes God pours out judgements during this time but the day of His wrath does not come until AFTER the tribulation. Scripture plainly says so.

Sun dark... after trib.
moon blood..after trib. both before the Day of the Lord

Then the world is terrified because Jesus gathers the saints and His wrath begins....after the tribulation

Scripture says so.

I could go on but I feel you will not be moved. This is sad. Read what Jesus said about His return. He said it would be after the tribulation.

He said it would be after the tribulation, after the sun turns dark and the moon turns to blood and the stars fall...then the Day of the Lord will begin as Joel, Jesus, and Revelation state.

I am not setting up straw men. Why should I when a plain reading of scripture shows exactly when these things shall be.

Read and trust others if you will but I must go by Jesus and the prophet's words. He and they said after the tribulation.

The church fathers, the disciples of the disciples said after the tribulation.

Modern prophecy teachers say before the tribulation.

Just show me where scripture says so. It doesn't.

In fact the word of God says completely the opposite.

It is you my dear brother who is setting up straw men as you have not one shred of scripture to show me Jesus returning before the tribulation. Not one. I have shown you several pointing to a post tribulational return and rapture.

I wish I was wrong. I wish there were a scripture that states He will return before the antichrist but it isn't there.

May God bless you my beloved brother.

THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL.....

Another very interesting question from our brother Gary, my answers in red:

Gary said...

I'll repeat here what I posted on the other blog.....compare Matthew 16:18-"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."with the Scriptures that speak about the Antichrist making war against the saints?

Daniel tells us, “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them” (7:21).

InRevelation 13:7, we read, “And it was given unto him [the Anti-christ] to make war with the saints, and to overcome them.

How can the 2 positions be reconciled unless the first refers to the pre wrath raptured church,and the Daniel and Revelation passages refer to the tribulation saints?I believe this poses a bit of a dilemma for the post trib position

also-a question....how many separate times has Jesus appeared on earth?

Okay,
So Gary is saying Satan cannot prevail against the church but that does not mean that at certain times in history even to the present day christians have not been persecuted, butchered and driven from one country to the next. Indeed when antichrist is revealed he will persecute the saints and prevail against them but the gates of hell will not prevail

JN Darby states: "The expression "The gates of hades," of the invisible world, refers to this kingdom of Satan. It is then on this power, which leaves the stronghold of the enemy without strength, that the assembly is built. The life of God shall not be destroyed. The Son of the living God shall not be overcome. That; then, which God founds upon this rock of the unchangeable power of life in His Son shall not be overthrown by the kingdom of death."

John Wesley writes: "The gates of hell - As gates and walls were the strength of cities, and as courts of judicature were held in their gates, this phrase properly signifies the power and policy of Satan and his instruments. Shall not prevail against it - Not against the Church universal, so as to destroy it. And they never did. There hath been a small remnant in all ages."
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These latter day saints (not Mormons) do not constitute the entire church throughout history.

It is the church universal that shall never be beaten.

What about the perecutions throughout history against different christians? Was scripture made null and void then? Of course not. These scriptures Dan. 7; Matt 16 and Rev. 13. are compatible.

Rick wrote:

Bob seems to think that the church not being mentioned after Rev 3 doesn't mean anything and that Church and Saints are both interchangable terms. But if we change the word saints to church in Revelation 13:7 then we have a huge problem with it being a complete contradiciction to Matthew 16:18.

Sorry but I see no contradiction between Revelation 13:7 and Matthew 16:18.

Think of the early church persecuted driven undrgound. Think of the Roman Catholic church and the murder and barbarity it commited against true believers during the inquisition.

Many died...overcome by the enemy. Was the chucrh defeated? No all these shall rise again in glory. In the final outcome the gates of Hell shall not prevail because even if we are all martyred we shall rise again and return with Christ in glorious bodies like unto his glorious body.

But let's we say you are correct and the saints in Revelation are NOT the church.

Okay let's agree then.

The saints in Revelation are NOT the church but are tribulation saints, those people converted after the rapture.

Now let's read Revelation 20:7-10 which is an account of the events after armageddon and into the 1,000 year reign with christ :

6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Just look at verse 9 again...so the camp of the saints and the beloved city is nothing to do with the church??

Where is the church then at this time?

It is strange that all through the New Testament saints are the church until we get to Revelation. Then they magically turn into tribulaton converts. That is not consistant.

Blessings I am off for a 2 mile walk with my mp3 player.

PRE/POST DEBATES SITE

All pre and post tribulation questions and answers.....we hope.... can now be found at
http://bob-mitchell-post-trib-forum.blogspot.com/

And the points and questions are beginning to flow in. That is great and let's keep it civil. We are all expeting the Lord to rapture us but the question is when?

Any comments etc please make them there as the comment box is now available to all.
The recent comments posted re; pre/post trib will be addressed at the above site.

Let's keep this blog for news and prophecy updates.

Thanks.

WHERE ARE THE PRE-TRIBBERS?

Hi Folks,

It looks as if my post tribulation forum site is getting very lonely.

All I did was ask the pre-tribbers to explain where I had misrepresented their stand.

Read it here.

They laughed at my position and said I was setting up straw men.

Well I am willing to be proved wrong from scripture so I simply asked to be shown the error of my ways from the bible, but as yet............nothing.

That doesn't mean my post -trib stance is correct. It simply means my pre-trib friends may be preparing a devastating scriptural response.

Remember evidence from scripture is what we are looking for ...not what so and so said in his book.

So far not one response which is quite a surprise.

CHRISTMAS DVDS READY TO POST TO UK

Hi dear friends,

Well we put our pain behind us, keep the memories, thank God for fellow believers and for close family ties.

Now we must pick up and continue the race.

As I guess you have noticed, Christmas is just 20 days away...what a thought.

May I remind our UK friends that we have dvds ready to send out should you order any of our end time messages for family or friends this christmas.

To be sure of delivery you should order in the next week to receive your dvds in time.

And please be sure to order through our Paypal site.

You do not need a Paypal account to pay online.

If you order through the post please order in the next few days as we may not get your cheques passed in time.

Remember if you send a cheque we usually have to wait a week at least for it to clear. Even some christian cheques have been known to be made of rubber!

To visit the dvd site and order those stocking fillers click here.

May Messiah bless you

PROPHECY MEETING THIS WEEKEND 6TH DECEMBER

Dear friends
For those of you who are able to get to Reading, Berkshire, UK this weekend I shall be speaking on the subject: The Rise and Rule of Antichrist

Details below. Hope to see you there.

Prophetic Witness Movement International
Reading Branch

“The Rise and Rule of Anti-Christ”
Bob Mitchell
Saturday 6th December 2008
7.30 pm
at
South of Reading Christian Fellowship
Three Mile Cross Church Centre
Basingstoke Road, Reading, RG7 1AT
Tel: 0118 988 4508

DIRECTIONS

Travelling from the North, West, East: Leave the M4 at Junct ion 11
and take the exit from the roundabout marked A33-Basingstoke,
after about 100m take the first exit from this roundabout marked
Three Mile Cross, Spencers Wood
Travelling from the South: Come up the A33 from Basingstoke and
at the roundabout just before the M4 take the third exit marked
Three Mile Cross, Spencers Wood
You will now be in Three Mile Cross and the entrance to the church
will be found about 100m on the left
Three Mile Cross Church centre

MANY THANKS FOR YOUR PRAYERS

Friends,

Thank you so much for your kind e-mails and prayers for my dearly loved brother Brian.

This wonderful brother, uncle, friend, husband, father, father-in-law and grandfather passed peacefully away this afternoon at 4 p.m. with most of the family by his side.

Your prayers are very precious to us all at this time.

In Jesus.
Bob and family

OBAMA AND THE NO SHOW BIRTH CERTIFICATE

Before I get kicked for posting this article regarding Obama you should read the following.

PZ News Watch - JACK KINSELLA - The Mystery Continues

The Mystery Continues By Jack Kinsella

The December 1st deadline has come and gone with no response from president-elect Barack Obama or anyone on his staff. Former Pennsylvania deputy attorney general Philip Berg filed a petition for writ of certiorari demanding Obama produce a legitimate birth certificate.
The petition was granted by Supreme Court Justice David Souter last month and the deadline for Obama's response was December 1st. In the end, it was only a symbolic victory for Berg, since Obama isn't legally required to respond.
But it was hoped that, should Obama choose to ignore it, that it might prompt the rest of the Supremes to wonder why. So far, if they are curious, they aren't curious enough to ask.
So Berg's filed an emergency motion asking the Court to stop the Electors from meeting on December 15th until after the Court reaches a decision on his appeal January 6th. Fat chance.
It seems that when it comes to the question of Obama's eligibility to serve as the nation's president, the Court has adopted a version of the military's 'don't ask don't tell' policy.
Google is banning stories dealing with Obama's birth certificate from both its news aggregator and search engines. It began shutting down anti-Obama blog sites at its "Blogspot.com" back in June.
(The Omega Letter was itself kicked off Google's news crawler back in 2005. Google never responded to questions requesting an explanation.)
The mainstream media refuses to even acknowledge that there is a question concerning Obama's eligibility, let alone conducting any investigation of the story on their own.
But the unanswered questions are continuing to pile up. In 1981, then-20 year-old Barack Hussein Obama traveled to Pakistan with his two roommates at Occidental College.
In 1981, Pakistan was in turmoil; it topped the State Department's "no go" list. Barack Hussein Obama could not have entered Pakistan legally bearing a US passport. Not only would it have been illegal for him to enter Pakistan under US law in 1981, it would have been illegal under Pakistani law.
If Obama went to Pakistan under a US passport, the State Department would have a record of it. It turns out that Obama didn't obtain his first US passport until after being elected to the US Senate.
How did he travel to Pakistan, Kenya and Indonesia in 1981 without a US passport?
I recall a major flap about some State Department employees looking up Obama's passport records without authorization. It seems it set off a klaxon alarm somewhere when Obama's records were accessed. I thought it 'interesting' that his passport records would be booby-trapped to prevent unauthorized access.
If Obama traveled internationally in 1981, he must have done so under an Indonesian passport. If so, then even if Obama IS natural-born, he may not be a US citizen under the Constitution and therefore still ineligible to serve.
It is almost as interesting that the mainstream media refuses to investigate his youthful globe-trotting as it is its refusal to investigate his birth status.
FactCheck.org says that it handled and examined the original copy of the birth certificate posted on Obama's website and pronounced it authentic and genuine. Leaving aside FactCheck.org's connection with the Annenberg Foundation, the certificate they examined doesn't tell the whole story.
According to Hawaii's official Department of Health, Vital Records webpage: "Amended certificates of birth may be prepared and filed with the Department of Health, as provided by law, for 1) a person born in Hawaii who already has a birth certificate filed with the Department of Health or 2) a person born in a foreign country" (applies to adopted children).
Even the Hawaii Department of Home Lands does not accept a certified copy of a birth certificate as conclusive evidence for its homestead program. From its web site:
"In order to process your application, DHHL utilizes information that is found only on the original Certificate of Live Birth, which is either black or green. This is a more complete record of your birth than the Certification of Live Birth (a computer-generated printout). Submitting the original Certificate of Live Birth will save you time and money since the computer-generated Certification requires additional verification by DHHL."
The AP reported about a statement of Hawaii Health Department Director Dr. Fukino, "State declares Obama birth certificate genuine." On careful examination of the AP story, one finds that Dr. Fukino's statement does not verify that Obama was born in Hawaii -- just that the certificate is genuine.
And as we've just discussed, under Hawaiian policies and procedures it is possible that Hawaii may have a birth record of a person not born in Hawaii.
But the mainstream media, the Supreme Court and even the opposition Republican Party are not just looking the other way, they're straining to look the other way.
Assessment:
The Governor of Hawaii has officially sealed Obama's birth records. The government of Kenya has officially sealed Obama's records there. (What relevant records would Kenya even have to 'seal'?)
The State Department has sealed Obama's passport records, even from its own employees. Whether the evidence will show that Obama is, or is not, “a natural born Citizen” who has never renounced his American citizenship is an open question.
But Obama's refusal to provide conclusive proof of his eligibility to serve forces the presumption that he knows of something in his birth or travel records that does not work in his favor.
Barack Obama's refusal to provide proof of his eligibility to serve creates a Constitutional crisis on a scale never faced by this nation in its history. The willingness to look the other way by those specifically charged by the Constitution with its defense shows how deep the crisis really is.
The much-vaunted "freedom of the press" protected by the First Amendment exists specifically so that the press can follow its Constitutional mandate to speak truth to power. The press has a Constitutional obligation to investigate the Obama eligibility question.
It has let down both its mandate, (the Constitution) and its constituency (the people) and has lost any moral claim to its 1st Amendment rights.
Once the press abrogated its Constitutional responsibility because it conflicted with its partisan political agenda, it crossed the line from a free press to that of state-controlled media. It no longer reports the news, it disseminates propaganda.
The Supreme Court is the exclusive guardian of the Constitution. If it permits the inauguration of an ineligible candidate by refusing to verify his bona fides, then it has failed in its mandate.
The Constitution is already tattered as a consequence of sixty years of liberal attacks on the existence of its Guarantor, the Creator God.
It is the Creator that the Declaration of Independence credits with the extension of the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, since what the Creator grants, only the Creator can withdraw. If there is no Creator, than our Constitutional rights are in fact, granted by government and guaranteed by nobody.
It appears that there is some kind of unspoken, bi-partisan conspiracy to conceal any records or documentation that might cast doubt on Obama's eligibility. That might sound nuts, but I don't know how else to interpret it. But nobody enters into a conspiracy without a motive.
What motive would bring the media, the GOP, the various Hawaii officials and the Supreme Court itself into such a conspiracy? The very same motive that has most of the country studiously looking the other way with them.
What if Obama won't prove his eligibility? What if he can't? What happens then?
Nobody really wants to find out.

NO PROPHECY PROGRAMME ON GENESIS TV TODAY

Dear friends,

I cancelled today's prophecy update as my brother Brian was said to be near to death with cancer and so we spent the day at the Hospice with family by his bed from 11:00 am.

Brian is still with us though not conscious. We finally left at 9 pm. His son and daughter are keeping a vigil by his bed and I expect to return there tomorrow unless I get a call tonight.

The whole family would benefit from your prayers right now.

Much love and thanks for your concern and thanks to Lesley, Howard, Yemi, Gordon and lovely wife, Kat, Susie and Eleanor and all the family at Genesis tv for their kindness and prayers today.

In Jesus
Bob

OBAMA PICKS HILLARY CLINTON FOR TOP POST....THANKS BILDERBERG

As previously stated on recent post Barak Obama has chosen Hillary Clinton as his Secretary of State.

I can't imagine a worse choice for the USA's representative in Israel's negotiations with the Palestinians.

But I and many others believe this is all part of the Illuminati/demonic plan to bring about the demise of Israel.

IT WILL NOT HAPPEN. They may get close with the coming world leader, antichrist, but the God of Israel has other plans for this segment of the children of Abraham.

How interesting that just a few months ago I reported that both Obama and Clinton vanished completely at the same time.

Just as the highly secretive Bildergerg Group held their annual meeting just 3 miles from where Obama was at the time.

Read it here and here

So we have a man who may be a closet Muslim leading the country and a woman who supposedly makes anti-semitic remarks as his Secrtetary of State. Read here

You couldn't make this stuff up.

I got it wrong thinking Hillary may have been selected as Obama's running mate, which proves I am no prophet...just a watchman, but he has given her the top job next to vice president.

Here is the report just out:

Barack Obama has named former rival Hillary Clinton as his Secretary of State.

The President said Robert Gates would stay on as Defence Secretary as part of a national security team charged with recasting America's leadership of world affairs.

Mrs Clinton and Mr Gates, who have been at odds with Mr Obama in the past over foreign policy and defence issues, will implement his vision of rebuilding the US image abroad and oversee two wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Mr Obama said: "I assembled this team because I am a strong believer in strong personalities and strong opinions. I think that's how the best decisions are made."

In a swipe at George W Bush's unilateral approach to foreign policy, Senator Clinton said: "While we are determined to defend our freedoms and liberties at all costs, we also reach out to the world again, seeking common cause and higher ground."

Mr Obama also named retired Marine General James Jones as national security adviser and Arizona Governor Janet Napolitano as head of homeland security.

Former Justice Department official Eric Holder will be the new attorney general and Susan Rice, an Obama foreign policy adviser, the US ambassador to the UN.

Mr Gates has been praised by Democrats and Republicans since taking over the Pentagon from Donald Rumsfeld in 2006 and will provide continuity while the US fights wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Mr Obama wants to withdraw US troops from Iraq within 16 months of taking office, but Mr Gates has argued against setting timetables and a quick pullout, saying it could jeopardise security gains made over the past year.

Mrs Clinton's husband, former President Bill Clinton, has agreed to make public the names of more than 200,000 donors to his foundation as part of a deal to clear the way for his wife to become secretary of state.

He decided to publish his contributor lists to avoid any appearance of conflict of interest with his wife's duties as secretary of state.

ISRAELIS WERE SPECIFICALLY TARGETED IN MUMBAI

The only terrorist captured alive in the Mumbai attacks, Azam Amir Kasab, told authorities that they were instructed to specifically target any Israelis to avenge the Palestinians.

He told them that many of the terrorists had been to the Nariman House posing as Malaysian students and even stayed for awhile.

Authorities believe that before he died due to his own wounds, Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg took a talit (prayer shawl) and wrapped the body of his beloved wife Rivka in it sometime just before the seige of the Nariman house ended.

The other identified victims of the attack on the Nariman house were: -

Israeli grandmother Yocheved Orpaz, 62 -

Jewish Mexican national Norma Shvarzblat Rabinovich, 50 -

Israeli-American citizen Bentzion Chroman, 26 -

Israeli-American Rabbi Leibish Teitelbaum, found with an open Talmud volume

In total, nine Israeli victims lost their lives in these attacks and make up the largest single nationality group of all those who died.

Most will be buried in Israel later on today, with Rabbi Holtzberg and his wife being buried Tuesday.

The Holtzberg's 2-year old son, Moshe, is now with Rivka Holtzberg's parents after his Indian nanny escaped from the house with the child who has now been brought to Israel.

And meanwhile in Israel prime minister Olmert pledged to release 259 Fatah terrorists, believing he can stil make a peace deal with Islam.

The Israeli cabinet voted 13-4 to release the 250 Fatah prisoners.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert had made a promise to do so in a meeting two weeks ago with Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas as "a goodwill gesture".

Environment Minister Gideon Ezra was quoted as saying, "I think Abbas has made efforts over the last few months to stop terrorism that we have never seen in the past, and we are obligated to do what we can do to make things easier for him without harming the security of the state," he said.

But, according to senior Israeli government sources, the real reason behind this release is to try to weaken Hamas. As there are no Hamas prisoners being released, this strengthens President Abbas and his standing with Fatah and the Palestinian people.

The source said that they have found that the best way to influence the Palestinian people is through the Palestinian families themselves. They suspect that there will be people asking why Abbas could get his Fatah faction prisoners released and why Hamas could not.

And of course as a result the majority of Palestinians under Abbas, who by the way voted for Hamas not Abbas, will think Israel is wonderful. Right?

Am I crazy or do these people leading Israel live in La La land?