Hi friends,
This Tuesday evening on Genesis tv LIVE@NINE ( SKY 592) ( http://www.revelationtv.com/watchgen.php) I shall be debating Dr. Richard Kent on the timing of the Rapture.
There will be opportunity to phone in or e-mail with your comments or questions.
Please pray the whole debate will be conducted in a spirit of brotherly love.
God bless you in Messiah.
12 comments:
Shalom Bob, Have you heard of Marvin (Marv) Rosenthal from Zion's Hope Ministries. He has some very good points regarding the Pre-Wrath Rapture before the Day of the Lord. It's amazing that those who promote to Pre-Tribulation Rapture view fail to answer many important questions on the subject. I believe that many who claim to believe in Yeshua will have a wake up call when they find themselves in the Great Tribulation. How can they say that the Rapture is sign-less when the Word of Adonai paints a different picture like signs in the sun, moon and stars.
Curiosity got the better of me -
what are the answers that pre-tribulation teachers fail to give?
PRE say the rapture is sign less because for the rapture to be PRE, the many events of the 7 years will be future when the church is gone. So really that’s why PRE say there are no signs.
PRE says that all the signs during the TRIB like the sun, moon and stars lead up to the 2nd coming of Jesus which the Bible describes differently to the rapture events - like the church goes UP to meet Jesus in the air while the 2nd coming Jesus comes DOWN onto the earth.
There are other differences I can't remember now, if you don't believe that - fine - but I think its obvious why PRE say there are no signs.
And the scripture proving the rapture is pre-trib and signless is...................
There is no such scripture.
It is infered.
The only time the Messiah Himself mentions a gathering (same word Paul uses in 2 Thessalonians 2) and a trumpet (same as Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4)and gathering the elect.. is after the tribulation.
And it is with noise, trumpet, angels, a shout, thousands of believers rising to meet the Messiah in the sky.
The very Latin word Rapere from which we get the word rapture is also where we get the word rape.
It is something that is violent, and noisey. Like when the crowd wanted to take Jesus by force and make Him their King. Same word is used.
When the crowd surrounded Paul and wanted him arrested. Same word.
And pre-tribbers use this same violent, noisey word for the rapture and tell us the rapture will be unseen, silent. You must be joking.
Then Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit should have written "Klepto" instead.
Klepto is where we get the word kleptomaniac from. Someone who steals silently.
But he didn't. Instead he wrote a word for the rapture that means something visiable, noisey and violent..just like the word says when He appears to judge the world.
I get really tired of asking for one, just one place where Jesus or anyone else says the rapture is before the tribulation.
Scripture is clear. The Messiah Himself stated clearly "After the tribulation of those days....."
Please do not tell me we are not appointed to wrath. I agree we are not appointed to the wrath of God.
But any clear reading of the scriptures show the tribulation is the wrath of Satan and the wrath of God follows the tribulation.
Just read the signs in Matthew 24 alongside the seals in Revelation 6 and you will see they are the same signs.
In Matthew 24:29-31 we read:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now read Revelation 6:12-17
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Do you see? The day of the wrath of God only comes after the cosmic signs. That is after the tribulation according to Jesus Himself.
So who do I beleive? The word of God or my favourite pre-trib teacher?
I think that is right, PRE says it is inferred through different scriptures.
And the scripture proving the rapture is POST-trib with signs is …………………………………
There is no such scripture.
It is inferred.
I tried to point out the reason WHY PRE says no signs. Don’t want to get your dander up. Don’t shoot the messenger, remember your own rules please.
PRE says the original greek is harpazo and means to suddenly snatch up and away quickly. Don’t think they mean its silent, they do say it will cause a lot of commotion in the world like clothes left, cars crashing. It is sudden without pre warning to it that’s no signs.
Why are you angry at me? I’m not joking, you said the words silent and secret not me. PRE says it was a mystery until Paul said about it, it was hidden until then so this must be where the word secret comes from. PRE says “after those days” is about the 2nd coming when Jesus comes back to earth, they say POST muddles the events into one.
Boy are you angry; I said nothing about wrath, glad you know about it anyway. The trouble comes from interpretation PRE is literal POST is with picture language. Not much point trying to discuss if no one is reading from the same page. Talk about wrath, you sure do have a burr under your saddle, that’s the last time I try to be helpful. Your picture looks like a nice gentle man – not grrrrrrr!
Ha ha. I am a gentle man.
Alow me to get frustrated every nowad then.
Sorry if I offended.
Quoting Bob Mitchell “Please do not tell me we are not appointed to wrath. I agree we are not appointed to the wrath of God.
But any clear reading of the scriptures show the tribulation is the wrath of Satan and the wrath of God follows the tribulation.
Just read the signs in Matthew 24 alongside the seals in Revelation 6 and you will see they are the same signs.End of quote.
Please don't get annoyed with me for this, but I keep wondering why you said that you know the church is not destined to wrath (orge) yet you still believe the church goes through the wrath of Daniels 70th week (the furnace of affliction for Jacob/Israel). Just wondering the reasons, I don’t want any trouble.
Anonymous said: Please don't get annoyed with me for this, (No Okay I shall not)but I keep wondering why you said that you know the church is not destined to wrath (orge) yet you still believe the church goes through the wrath of Daniels 70th week (the furnace of affliction for Jacob/Israel). Just wondering the reasons, I don’t want any trouble.
Bob: You actually put the word "wrath" into Daniel's 70th week. I can't find it there. However as I have said before this is the wrath of Satan not God.
God is not pouring His wrath on the Jewishpeople...Satan is as is clear from Revelation 12. Also note when Satan can't get to the Jews he turns his anger on who...?
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Who has the testimony of Jesus? Jews? No, believers in Jesus...christians, messianic and otherwise.
This is Satan's wrath. God's follows and we are not appointed to His wrath. But we are apointed to suffer trials and persecutions etc.
Hope this helps.....good question though.
If you had been on tele, I would have liked to ask this Q so thanks. The 70th week of Daniel will be real bad because Jesus said it will be worse than anything that has ever been before – right? The thing is that you say it is man’s wrath and satans wrath but not Gods wrath – right? That’s what I have just read you have said. Well what I mean is this because 1thess 5:9 says “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” and Jesus is talking about the trib the 70th week . Well what I mean is that it makes no odds how the wrath comes, it just says “not appointed us to wrath” ogre? I think? Anyway that word means just that real bad trouble. It doesn’t say it has to just be Gods wrath, it just says wrath that’s what I don’t get.
Also you are right about it being believers that satans ,after but that is those who will come to Jesus when the 144000 witness to the world as the church is in heaven with Jesus waiting to come back with him at his 2nd comimg.
Thanks for answering that’s what I see and wonder what the dr would say about it? would he answer on here for us with you I wonder? Am I being cheeky? Sorry if I am but it would be good though :)
Having plenty of time on my hands due to impassible side roads full of thick snow for two weeks, I have been watching a re-run of the Rapture Debate. The phone in at the end has made me laugh so much. One caller, a fervent Postib Irish man, gives the impression that Jesus is super glued to The Throne and therefore incapable of doing anything but sit! :-D
He said that pretrib is wrong because of e.g. Acts 2:34,35. "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, 35 Till I make Your enemies Your footstool". Vs.36 Triumphantly declares the work DONE "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
The FINISHED work of the cross meant the total defeat of His enemy just as God promised in Eden Genesis 3:15 “And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel”.
Christ’s foot is ALREADY across the neck of His enemies in victory, and Satan is the reluctant and humiliated footstool NOW. At the end of the Millenium Messianic rule on earth, Christ’s defeated enemies, death being the last, will be finally destroyed. With friends not knowing the Scripture basics of redemption; Postrib needs no enemies. Ah well, it has given me a good chuckle.
For balance, the Pretrib. position put by Dr. Kent inaccurately places the Rapture in Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke21 but it is the 2nd Coming that is portrayed in these verses; the Rapture is merely alluded to with the instruction to ‘Watch’.
(So Satan don't stand a snowballs chance in hell)Did you catch my drift? ;-D
Saw most of this online and it was quite lively. One point thats been niggling at me ever since is about the 7churches in Revelation. Bob said that the rapture could not be imminent because Kent said it pointed to 7 church ages, so that had to happen before the rapture so imminency could not be.
I thought that seemed a good answer at first, but now I dont. The letters were to 7 real churches and for those with an ear to hear as well. Jesus said nothing at all about 7 church ages, he gave the messages for there and then living churches and not anything about later in history at all. In all honesty I cant now accept that argument stands against imminency as its an idea that has come with the passing of time while looking back. Jesus made no mention of that having to happen at all its something that christians have done off their own bat that may or may not be right.
So Im afraid that argument holds no water at all, and if I was to use it can see it easily being knocked down flat by pre-tribbers with egg on my face.
post guy.
Thanks for the excellent comment you made.
This was exactly my point in bringing the "ages" argument to the table.
Pre-tribbers usually use the "7 ages" argument to show we are entering the Laodecean age.
You are absolutely right. Jesus never mentione 7 ages at all.
However it now transpires some pre-tribbers, Dr. Kent and his pastor and others, want their cake and eat it too. They want an imminent any moment rapture and they want 7 ages also!
In my earlier debate with dr. Kent he offered no argument when I stated Jesus could not have come if we are supposed to wait for the 7 ages to transpire first.
But between debates they changed the goal posts.
In the most recent debate they are now saying the return only became imminent after 1948 when the Israel became a nation again.
This has been invented to counter the obvious hole exposed in the 7 ages argument.
Sneaky huh? Almost as bad as the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Hey Bob I kept losing my link online so I missed that about 1948. So dr Kent is sneaky is he?!!!! they like to go on about posttribs having lots of diffrent veiws so they can’t talk, but that doesnt change the iminency thing, if Kent expect a sudden rapture from 48 . Or if its from when others say which is from when Jesus said after the first signs began which was the fall of the temple by the Romans. So each way it makes no odds with their iminent rapture idea, still cant seem to shake that up as best as I can see? But there sure is a big hole in the 7 age thing, they need to get there facts the same.
Post guy.
Post a Comment