Dear friends,
I wonder if you would be kind enough to forward this to anyone you think might be interested.
Bible upholding, Gospel preaching, Pre-millennial, Pro-Israel, pastor is seeking similar Evangelical Church.
Jon Ikin has been a pastor for fourteen years in Reading and Weymouth and is seeking a new opening for ministry.
Jon is committed to expository preaching, seeking to do so with a Jewish understanding of Scripture. He is open to the gifts of the Spirit, but not 'charismania'. Reverence in worship is essential.
Non-ecumenical churches only please (ie, not 'Churches Together')
Contact Jon by telephone: 01305-761-912 (this number may change before July) by email: jonhev.ikin@sky.com
Thank you so much for your help.
42 comments:
Good evening Bob,
I believe it was while watching you interview Jon Ikin on RTV back in 2011 that made me frequent your site thereafter.
I understand Jon is a teacher of the secret rapture and therefore believes that the Lord comes before the Antichrist etc,etc.
I hope and sincerely pray that Jon would come to the biblical truth that there is NO pre-trib rapture, and that this 'teaching' is nothing more than a man made theory.
I am sure that Jon is a very nice man, but does it not trouble you just a little bit that you are reccommending a pre-trib teacher?
I do appreciate that he may have a good biblical knowledge (up to a point) and is pre-millenial and has a heart for Israel etc.
I would just like to know your thoughts on this important matter.
It is my belief that the pre-trib 'theory' is the major deception in the proffessing believing Church in these last days...
Hi there Bob; The latest of the new members who have joined your BlogSpot is a chap named Ron who labels himself as the old geezer. I have noted that he operates it under a certain philosophy whereby he is able to attract a great number of members to his BlogSpot and comments to his articles. Concurrently, he has about 3794 members, with the average number of comments to his postings being approximately 200. As that is the case, then one could rightly say that his chap has been more than successful with his philosophy of attracting new members to his BlogSpot. In fact, after searching the Internet extensively, I cannot ever recall a BlogSpot that has ever held that number of members? Even as that is the case, that still leaves me to ask is that what the Lord is really looking for out of Christians when they run a blog, a social networking site for Christians? Certainly, that is not the case in my instance, but still may be the substance of Ron's ministry? As the success of sites such as Facebook and Twitter testify to, there is a real and genuine need for the aforementioned, and so in that sense Ron seems to be providing that need. That is still not to say that all of those who are being attracted to his blog are Christians, when there are many who may label themselves as such, when they are anything but? What the success of Ron's BlogSpot indicates is that there are those out there in cyber land who are more concerned with the now, and not what is looming right around the corner as we rapidly approach the end times? That, there are so many who are literally burying their heads in the sand comparative to what is to come. They just do not want to know. Someone who posts here quite frequently has described the late Barry Smith as being a sensationalist because he dared to tell it how it is. What that seems to indicate is that the majority of those who claim to be Christians simply do not want to know what they are in for? Alternatively, if they do they very quickly adopt a pre tribulation stance towards the return of the Lord, when there is really nothing in the word of God that teaches anything of the like. The pathway towards the Kingdom of God is long and narrow with many chosen but few actually making it right through. Make sure that you are one of the ones who does make it by making sure that you are thoroughly Born Again, and then hang on fast to your salvation by obeying the Ten Commandments given to Moses by God. Nuff said for the time being.
Good luck with that one John, but there is nothing at all that I can really do from this end other than to keep you constantly in my prayers in the hope that you get what you are seeking - that being of course a ministry.
Hi Colin,
I have always maintained that the secret rapture doctrine is not salvific and as such have always been friends with those who hold to the belief and who simply for one reason or another cannot see my reasoning from scripture.
However I must confess that as we move deeper into these days the teaching is taking on a darker tone to me. I mean you could well be correct and this is a great deception. Well, if something is not true then it is obviously false and therefore deceptive.
Thank God for the pastor of the pre trib church who has invited me to speak on the post trib rapture or catching away.
You have made me begin to re-think my attitude. Thanks Colin.
Hi Colin,
I have always maintained that the secret rapture doctrine is not salvific and as such have always been friends with those who hold to the belief and who simply for one reason or another cannot see my reasoning from scripture.
However I must confess that as we move deeper into these days the teaching is taking on a darker tone to me. I mean you could well be correct and this is a great deception. Well, if something is not true then it is obviously false and therefore deceptive.
Thank God for the pastor of the pre trib church who has invited me to speak on the post trib rapture or catching away.
You have made me begin to re-think my attitude. Thanks Colin.
Hello again Bob,
If the pre-trib rapture doctrine is not taught in scripture as you do believe,then logically you would not want to promote it?
There are people who call the pre-trib doctrine 'Satanic'. Now that kind of language can be most unhelpful when discussing,debating and teaching the rapture, which now can be a most contentious topic.
When you say it is not a 'salvific' doctrine I would take issue with that. It reverses the order of everything regards the Antichrist and the Lord's coming. Is this not a major issue? Corrie Ten Boom certainly believed so.
Her letter written I believe in 1974 should be a salutory wake up call to us all. How many laws need to change in the west before believers are persecuted and killed like in Islamic countries etc??
If the pastor or christian believeing in a pre trib rapture saved? Many post tribbers say no as they peddle deception and lies according to the post tribbers. Therefore is the pastor or christian approving of divorce considered the same, or the pastor or believer claiming the gifts of the Spirit are ended therefore actually agreeing that these gifts come from somewhere else considered the same, what about the Christian who believes not in hell? Or the christian whom believes God has finished with Israel? Or the Christian who reads the NIV which refers to Jesus as satan? The rapture issue is not essential for salvation but God says He hates divorce and Jesus supports this as does Paul. Who is the perfect Christian completely sound in doctrine?
Hi Colin, As I wrote earlier, I am re-thinking my attiude.
And to anonymous, I have to admit that having extensively read many books I cannot recall everreading or speaking to a post tribber who thought the pre trib pastors were unsaved. Can you cite some names for me. That would be helpful.
Thanks
As to marriage and divorce one should read a book by that title by Ralph woodrow which from scripture does permit divorce as shown by him as he explores this subject and yes I married a divorce and Bob was the best man and I am a Jewish believer
blessings The Rebe
Colin; There is nothing at all that I can see in the word of God that says anything at all about a rapture of the church, and as that is the case then why would there be anything to discuss or debate when there is nothing there to begin with. Sorry to have to rain on your parade but that is the way that I see things at the moment.
There are people who write books scripturally supporting divorce and there are people who write scripturally supporting remaining married. The book I read is the Bible which over rules all books and in Malachi 2 v 16 it says that God hates divorce, its a garment of violence. I also read Matthew 19 and Mark 10 which give me the opinion of the Son of God.
Marriage being a covenant. I do not mean to be judgemental but you raised the bar on this subject when it was mentioned in passing relating to another view on this item. Relating to people who write books, some write books scripturally against tongues and some scripturally for, the same with the rapyure but the Word is the final authority, what does God hate? Does He not tell husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the church, how did Christ love the church? While we were sinners he died for us. Unconditional love.
Hi there I am wondering what Bob means that the teaching (pretrib I think he means) in these days is taking on a darker tone. How so? How is this showing itself darker than before? You have made me curious, what do I need to look out for?
Thank you very much.
I guess I mean that when anyone brings up the timing of the rapture it tends to be (not always) the pre tribber who gets hot under the collar because he simply cannot produce one scripture that says Jesus returns for his elect wih a trumpet and angels BEFORE the trib. The teaching has to be inserted into the text or seen in types. But types support doctrine they do not make doctrine.
Matthew 24 29-31 tells us clearly when he shall come. After! And there is not a single verse that says the tribulation lasts 3 and a half years. Ac's rule may last that long but that doesn't mean the persecution does.
And I get an itch when folks talk about the 7 year tribulation.
Not in scripture....anywhere.
Also as we get further into the end times and there is no rapture yet pre-tribs get ever more desperate as the can clearly see the signs that they are running out of time. Their window for departure shortens by the day.
All I ask is a verse that says he comes before.
Dear Bob,
Amen!I have been raised in a pre-trib assembly of God church my whole life and thought I was reading a different bible from my church and family.I believed pre-trib even though when I read the bible it didn't make sense to me(with pre-trib thinking),I thought that there was something wrong with me that I couldn't understand the bible like all pre-trib church and family members could,so I gave up for years(about 10 yrs) to even try to understand about the second coming of Jesus.I avoided talking or reading about it,I know that sounds awful but it is the truth.5 months ago,I was praying when God put it on my heart to forget what I had been taught and read what HE had to say about the last days.This is where God's everlasting patience and love came in for the next two months,if God got headaches this is where He would have gotten one.lol.I studied,prayed and questioned God from morning to night.I came out post trib and very worried that there was still something wrong with me not understanding the bible until I took my search to the internet to see if there was anything i could read to help me understand and thats when God lead me to your website.All I can say is that I have thanked God alot for your website and peoples discussions(pre-trib and post-tribbers) on your website because it has helped a bunch. I have found out not to question my family and fellow pre-trib church members,unless I want to get everyone hot under the collar as you said which I avoid at all costs expecially in my irish and sicilian mixed family.lol. P.S I never could see a 7 year trib and a few other things either.God Bless!
Amazed how hostile people are towards fellow Brothers and Sisters in Christ simply becuase they have a different view on timing of rapture, disgracful to claim certain people will be rejected by God for thier theology.
Heaven will be very empty place if God rejected everyone based on this, as no one church or person has things 100% correct and never will.
I think the point has been well made above! Books! There are just too many books! I don't know but I believe 99.9% of them are fit for a bonfire! The Lord castigated the Pharisees of old for all their layers of extra biblical teaching including the so called 'oral law' which must be a myth as the written law was found in Josiah's day,and the Israelites even forgot that! Josiah's father's name was Manesseh which means 'caused to forget'. A coincidence? Definitely not!
As we can see history has repeated itself in the latter part of this Christian dispensation that we are now in. There is a plethora of 'Christian' books,CDs,DVDs teaching materials etc. The false and contradictory teachings contained within must be of a truly staggering scale. What should we do? Read and believe the Bible!! Isaiah 8.20;'To the law and to the testimony;'If they speak not according to this word it is because there is no light in them'.
The Lord said in Matthew 24.4; 'Let NO man deceive you',the next verse He says that 'Many shall come in His name and many will be deceived'. If only we could grasp the weight of these truly solemn words. As Bob continually maintains the 'secret any moment rapture' before the so-called 7 year tribulation period is NOT taught anywhere in Scripture! It is as plain and simple as that,it is an eisegetical teaching NOT exegetical. A theory, nothing more. Now exactly what the implications are of being deceived by this false teaching are becoming clearer as time moves on. Bob says that pre-trib teaching is taking on a darker tone. He is right. Their window for departure is shortening by the day. From my observations of Mr Mitchell, he is very gracious toward his pre-trib friends, some could say too much so.
When I read Matthew 24.31, 1 Thessalonians 4.16, 1 Corinthians 15.52 I see the same event, yet our pre trib brethren will say otherwise.
I don't care if these teachers have more degrees than a compass and are called Revs,Doctors and Professors, the Lord says 'Let NO man deceive you.'
It all goes back to the source, we know that a corrupt tree doesn't bring forth good fruit.
I have regular communications with a prominent pre-trib teacher and he told me that he had sold his house and done much else besides because he felt the Lord was about to come. This was about three years ago. I know that he is pre-millenial and doesn't believe that the world is about to end. He knows that the coming Messianic Kingdom will be a time of great blessing. But IS IT A LIGHT THING to teach people that the Lord is coming before the Antichrist? Are there not eternal consequences for this? (James 3.1).I have been in their meetings and many quote the Lord could come back before lunch!
It is said that if a lie is repeated often enough it becomes truth!
It would be good if the following was true, but it isn't!
Hi thank you Bob very much for that info. Those that I know are a bit diff. to that. The news is getting me nervous as I see the troubles building so fast, but they are as happy as larry because they say the rapture cant be long now, so not long to wait. I asked one about a before verse, first off he said the Matt verse is about the 2nd coming not the rapture as they are diff things not together, and there isn’t one verse for before, nor one for after??? He said its inside lots of verses but not just one verse, something about dividing properly. I didn’t get that and didn’t want to go in to deep so I dropped it and forgot to ask about the seven years. (Daniel 9) I think.
Jacob Prasch isn’t pretrib, and hes done something on the rapture types. If you would like to see it, its at this place. http://www.moriel.org/Newsletter/2008/2Q-2008_Types_of_the_Rapture.pdf
Its hard going to read for me, but if Jacob Prasch is in error, I think it best if I don’t try to read anymore of it. What puzzled days we live in. Thank you very much for answering my question.
(When I read Matthew 24.31, 1 Thessalonians 4.16, 1 Corinthians 15.52 I see the same event)
Colin, with respect, I would like to explain why I don’t see the same event as you – I don’t want to argue, just say what I see it different using only the bare bones. 1Cor15:51-52 and 1Thess.4:13-17 are the same event as they both concern the dead in Christ being raised from the dead, as well as the living being changed from mortal to immortal, when they are taken UP into the clouds to meet Jesus. But in Matthew 24:31 it is only the dead being resurrected and nothing about the living being changed, they are still physical, and they don’t go up into the clouds, they are still on earth.
Where I place Matt24:31 is with Isaiah 11:11,12 as the 2nd WORLD-WIDE re-gathering and regeneration of the remnant Jewish nation in BELIEF (after going thru Tribulation) back into the land of Israel under the New Covenant ready to repopulate the Messianic Kingdom on earth. (That’s fulfilling the Land or Palestinian Covenant God made with Israel).
We know God promised King David will rule a believing Israel (with the Messiah) so I see Matt 24:31 as the resurrection of King David along with all the other Old Testament Saints from heaven, who in their resurrected, immortal bodies will rule Israel along with King David. (Messiah will rule ALL the repopulated gentile nations, from Jerusalem, with a rod of iron) The physical, surviving living are gathered at the same time, from the four corners of the earth, they are the scattered Jews from all around the world that God will bring back into the land and kingdom that He promised, ready to repopulate the land. This time its for blessings poured out as the New Covenant made with Israel promised. Jer.31:31-34.
Although God brought the Jews back into the land from Babylon, it was only a move from one country, Babylonia, into another country, Israel, But God says he will re-gather the Jews back into the land as a 1st WORLD-WIDE re-gathering which is with God’s strong arm; ready to have wrath poured out. Here they are in UNBELIEF this is seen in Ezek 20:39-49. (vs41-42) gathered from ALL the COUNTRIES with God’s wrath (the Nazi holocaust) ready FOR wrath in the Gog Magog war and also in the 70th Week particularly in Jerusalem Ezek 22:17-22 for the AoD. This first regathering is going on right now (which started in 1948 when Israel was reborn as a nation) Like I said, Isaiah 11:11,12 says there will be TWO such world-wide gatherings, the first in unbelief right now, and the second in belief is in Matt 24:31 to rebuild physical Israel from a saved remnant of believing Jews in the promised land. I just cannot see Matt24:31/Mark13:27 the same as 1Cor15:51-52 and 1Thess.4:13-17, which is about the rapture of the church. I think I’ll leave it there, but there is another slant that I could add.
God bless. :)
Hi anonymous. I must disagree. Matthew 24:31 and Mark 13:27 say nothing about the dead being raised at all.
But I believe they are and they tie in with the other verses you kindly mentioned.
People have a tendancy to attempt to make a difference between the rapture and the second coming because they are presented with some elements either missing or present in each description therefore to some these are different events.
But different writers concentrated on different aspects. For instance if we were to follow the rule that says every thing described in one chapter on the rapture must be repeated in a corresponding chapter on the same event we would have some real problems for instance with the resurrection of the Lord Jesus.
In Matthew just two Mary's are mentioned coming to the tomb.
In Mark it seems the two Mary's come with Salome.
In Luke we see women and other women coming to the tomb.
In John only one Mary is mentioned coming to the tomb and no one else.
Four reports each with different accounts of exactly who went to the tomb. Each describing the same event: the resurrection.
So when Pre tribbers argue that Matthew 24 and 1 Thess 4 are different events if we use our heads we see they are writing about the same event but highlighting different aspects of it.
The fact is Jesus himself told his disciples when he would return.
Paul follows on with the same event. But at no point do we ever read of Jesus coming before the tribulation and that is the card Pre-tribbers do not hold which makes their whole argument fail.
The fact remains there is not a single verse, or doctrine esposed by the prophets, Jesus or the apostles that ever once mentions a coming before the final seven years. I know folks will say the trinity isn't mentioned but it is there. Jesus came as God in the flesh, the spirit spoke, they prayed to the father in heaven.
But at no time can we preach pre-trb without doing damage to the text and inserting our own meaning into what is written.
Dear AndrewA and Bob,
Thanks AndrewA for your comments,I agree with you.It hurt as a young new christian to have questions about the bible and the people you look to get angry? or offended? or scared?(not so sure why some get so hot under the collar).I don't know any posttribbers personally so thats why I'm on Bob website all the time.Please pretribbers don't take any offense to what I say because I don't think any less of anyone for believing pretrib or posttrib,I think what matters is your own personal relationship with God and Jesus,if you believe in Jesus and God and love them with your whole heart and live the best life possible according to the bible that is what matters most.As I have said I like reading comments from pre and posttribbers.I don't think pastors that believe pretrib set out with the intention of deceiving anyone as when I believed pretrib I never meant to deceive or twist the bible I just new that I had so much joy and love in my heart for God and Jesus.This is just my personal opinion and you don't have to pay any attention to it.God Bless!
Christ comes as a thief in the night to all those who are in darkness but those of us who are watching and waiting for his return he will not come on us as a thief. We will be ready when he arrives. Those who love his appearing will on that same day with Paul (raised) receive a crown of righteousness (2Th. 4:8). Those who are angered at his return will be judged under his wrath.
Everyman will see his reward: Rev 22:12—“And, behold, I come quickly; and my REWARD [is] with me, to give EVERY MAN according as his work shall be.” True Christians are not appointed to wrath but everyone’s judgment comes on the same day: The Day of the Lord.
Too much time is wasted on the Rapture, catching away, or whatever a person wants to call it. Don’t get me wrong I think the subject is completely important in the way that it does matter if someone has the wrong view. I just wonder why everyone is so worried about the Rapture i.e. being changed in the twinkling of an eye when they could be dead in the twinkling of an eye.
The thing is: Christ is only coming back one time i.e. the second time. Hebrew 9:28—So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation (deliverance, salvation, Christians redeemed, Strong’s G 4991).
If you are a person who truly loves truth then you must receive this message no matter what rapture view you hold. The Jews are part of what God means when he says, “my reward [is] with me to give EVERYMAN.” There is no respect of persons when it comes to God—the Jews will see him the same day we do. The wicked will see him the same day we do. To the Christian it is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ unto salvation and to the wicked it is the day of wrath.
Proverbs 11:4—Riches profit not in the day of wrath: but righteousness delivereth (is salvation) from death.
Bob,
I have never before heard of the analogy you used comparing the Scriptures pertaining to the ressurection of the Lord with the rapture scriptures; however it does hold water.
The gospel writers didn't corroborate with each other;they faithfully recorded what say had seen or indeed what the Holy Spirit inspired them to write.
Regarding Matthew 24.31,1 Thessalonians 4.16 and 1 Corinthians 15.52, and indeed many other scriptures (especially Messianic prophecies), if the Scripture writers were to record EVERY jot and tittle so to speak, the bible would probably contain 36,000 pages!
You could therefore argue that if that was the case then there wouldn't be any 'confusion' regards the timing of the rapture, because it would all be clearly spelt out! When considering this it becomes clearer to me therefore NOT to introduce a 'theory' into Scripture, but use and compare Sripture with Scripture in order to understand what the Abiding Word of God is saying to us.
I only learnt the other day that there were 'marginal' notes in some very early copies of the 1611 KJV, and I thought that was Schofield's invention! (did you know this?)In their marginal notes the translators had the three aforementioned scriptures correllated together so they obviously believed they were describing the same event.
I just wish people wouldn't relegate Matthew 24 as applying only to the Jews when it clearly applies to the whole body of believers Jew and Gentile alike!
There are clearly dispensations in Scripture but the hyper dispensationalists have gone too far!
So sorry not to make it plainer, I was only going by the bare bones and I made an assumption that Colin would understand. (By the way, I didn’t even mention pretrib at all, I wasn’t referring to that anywhere, the timing is nothing to do with my post. I have only said that the rapture is not to be seen Matt24:31, if the rapture is to occur at all, it isn’t seen in this verse. It has to be inserted into the text)
Matt 24:31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from ONE END OF HEAVEN TO THE OTHER. (this is idiom for the dead elect who are in heaven and are being gathered.)
Mark makes it plainer.
Mark 13:27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the UTTERMOST PART OF THE EARTH to the UTTERMOST PART OF HEAVEN.
From the EARTH this is about living people who being gathered as per Isaiah 11:11 back into the land of Israel in their physical bodies this time in belief. This is ready to start the promised rule of Messiah on earth for a thousand years. These are not being changed and that is a vital point for the rapture event. They are not even taken up into the air as the rapture verses explain. I am not talking when it happens, its just not in that verse, its inserted. This is the only place that goes with God’s promises to regather the Jews from all around the world for the 2nd time in belief. Forget the resurrection if you wish (but it is plain to me it is a gathering in heaven for resurrection). I could add another issue to it in support, but I don’t want to argue so I shall leave it there I think. :)
I agree with much of what Anonymous has just said above. It would help if sometimes our Anonymous friends would sign off with a name to avoid confusion!
As we know the bible teaches that the Lord's coming is the hope of the Church (Titus 2.13).
The one thing that I would like to raise regarding the rapture is that it is inextricably linked with the Lord's second coming.
In Matthew 24 the Lord in various places warns us about deception regarding His coming (I wonder WHY?). His coming is going to be the greatest crisis that has ever happened to this planet. Obviously it will be a joy for the true believers but not so for unbelievers. What do we do with the 'Parable of the wheat and the tares' in Matthew 13? This is a very solemn teaching. Clearly there are false Christians and heretics. It is easy to pick out the Benny Hinns and Jesse DuPlantiss's that are out there and say they are the deceivers.
But when you have people teaching an 'any moment secret rapture', that has become a universally accepted and popularised doctrine to the point that most believe that it is biblical, what are the ramifications of this false teaching?
It is not my desire to make people 'hot under the collar' but if as you believe that this 'secret rapture' is not biblical then what is it? It ought not be taught as biblical,period.
God's people should be told that the bible does not teach it. Therefore it should NOT be considered on an equal footing with what the Holy Scriptures teach.
Some may think I am obsessed with the rapture, I am not,but His coming is my great hope! I know that sounds like an oxymoronic statement but the rapture in its proper context is the term used to describe our being 'caught up'. In other words I love the Lord's coming but not the rapture per se, or if I am in a department store I might want to get to the top floor by means of an escalator; it doesn't mean I desire the escalator, only whatever it is I am going upstairs to buy!
here wee go round the mullbery bush all day long, well lets wait and see, your £64,000 question where does it say the Rapture takes place before Jacombs trouble or otherwise known as the Great Tribulation, you will not find one Proverbs 30:4-6 and Revelation talks about adding to God's word, when it happens it will be glorious and we will not be interested in the when but the NOW
blessings The Rebe
If the church comes under the same plan as Israel then how do you divide who are mortal and who are immortal. the land of Israel is on physical earth to be repopulated by Jews in mortal bodies and having babies so they can't be immortal at the same time. Thats what Matt24:31 is all about, the gathering of physical Jews (remnant)back into the land for the 2nd time from all the world. So if the Jews of Israel is also the Church of Jews and Gentiles who or where do the raptured immortal people fit in. which ones of Israel/church are mortal and which ones of Israel/church are immortal as I dont see how they can be both at the same time?
I agree with you Colin there is nothing that I can see in the rapture verses that say it is a secret. It seems to be quick and sudden (twinkling) but that is bound to have a big effect on those who are not raptured. I mean to say, if a wife is left alone all of a sudden in the marital bed, she has got to know something odd has gone on. The same as two farm hands working busy together in a field, it wont be a secret that their work mate has suddenly vanished in front of them. Just imagine the shock if a coach driver out on a trip with lots of passengers suddenly vanishes away from his seat at the steering wheel. Those passengers will know all about it. So no, the rapture is not a secret at all. This verse clears it up for me in 1Cor15:51 Behold, I shew you a MYSTERY; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. This word mystery is said to be something that was hidden, and it can be used to say a secret. It seems to me that it means the knowing of this rapture was hidden before Paul let the cat out of the bag, so to speak, so it was once a secret, but not anymore (for those who read about it that is) So no, the rapture is not a secret, it was once, but not any more because its written plainly for all to read in the Bible.
I have counted eleven mysteries, that was once a secret, but not any more. The church is called a mystery, and nobody knew about it until Paul revealed it, so its not a hidden secret any more. In 1Cor4:1 Paul says about being stewards of the mysteries and at his conversion (Acts 26:16-18) Paul was promised he was chosen to reveal God’s mysteries and there was eight for him, two for John and Jesus also revealed one. (but Im sure you know this. :)
Maybe people say it is a secret, but really mean it was a secret as one of Gods mysteries???? Ah, but knowing about it, Colin isn’t the same as knowing when its going to happen so I think that bit of information is still a secret. Another reason for me to add that Matt 24:31 is not about the rapture at all, but about the regathering of the Jews back into all the promised land, in full. Maybe that’s why the time of the rapture isn’t to be found in any verse, to keep the time a secret mystery, until it happens, then the whole world will know the when about it. God bless you, I enjoyed our chat. :)
Anonymous,
There are far better people than me to give an answer to this what would appear to be a perplexing question. I have only recently started studying this particular aspect in depth. So I will do my best.
If as post tribulation believers we believe that Matthew 24.31, 1 Thessalonians 4.16-17 and 1 Corinthians 52 are all speaking of the same event then it follows as I have said before that the 'Coming' is inextricably linked with the rapture. I will quote from Hogg & Vine's (pre-trib rapture scholars!) 'The Epistles To The Thessalonians' (page 146).
To meet the Lord-'apantesis,lit., 'Into a meeting with;' the word occurs several times in LXX, 1 Sam. 13.10, 2 Chron. 15.2: 19.2 etc.,and in the NT again in Matt 25.1,6, Acts 28.15. It occurs in a papyrus manuscriptof the 2nd century B.C.,and in another in the 3rd century A.D.,for the reception of a newly appointed magistrate or other dignitary,by the residents in his district on his arrival there. Almost invariably the word suggests that those who go out to meet him intend to RETURN TO THEIR STARTING PLACE with the person met. So it is,evidently,in all the occurrences noted above,and this meaning seems equally appropriate here. Paul is reassuring the converts that their departed will not miss the promised glory of the Kingdom,for God will bring them with Christ when He comes to reign;but how,if their bodies are lying asleep in the dust in the earth? They will be raised by His quickening voice,and will be caught away to meet Him in the air,and,in due course,will return with Him to the earth from from whence they set out; see Matt 25.31, and Col. 3.4.
Now I believe that the Church (consisting of Jew and Gentile) is ONE body and bride together married to Christ. Lets not forget that the Apostolic Church was Jewish!
Do also remember that there will be Heathen nations populating the globe in the coming glorious Messianic age. Read the Prophecy in Zechariah 14.16; 'And it shall come to pass that every one that is left of all the nations which came up against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of Tabernacles.
So who are these people? Are they not survivors of the tribulation?
I hope this is of some help.
So Vine & Hogg are saying the rapture is going out to meet him? That makes no sense to me at all, the rapture verses show a sudden ‘twinkling’ event (I think that means an atomic second?) being suddenly snatched up into the air (these people don’t go out anywhere, they just get on with life, or lay in the grave) then whoosh, thats not a going out to meet him. No that doesn’t explain it to me Im afraid. With the other survivors as you mentioned, yes, they are the gentiles who survive the Trib called sheep and goats. (Matt25:32-46) Nothing to do with the Israel/church and the physical land of Israel being repopulated. So I still don’t see how Israel/church can be both mortal and immortal at the same time. Reproducing mortal babies (marriage) AND being immortal like Jesus (glorified) at one and the same time makes not a bit of sense to me. All I am sure about is that Matt24:31 is not a rapture verse. Thank you for your time Colin, that’s all I have time for Im sad to say. :)
Hi there Friends; if the amount of postings with varying and differing opinions is any indicator at all, there is a great deal of confusion relative to the timing of the Rapture of the Church. The reason there is so much confusion and argument over the timing of the Rapture is that there is nothing in the word of God to begin with that says anything at all comparative to a Rapture of the Church. If there were then we would not be seeing all of this diversity of opinion relative to the timing of something that is not there no matter how hard one is to look. Consider this; if it were an event known as the Rapture of the Church in the word of God, that reality be as plain as the nose on your face? If there were, then there would be nothing to argue about at all. That is only the reason why we are dealing with all of the controversy going on about the Rapture is that the Bible teaches the resurrection of the dead on the Day of the Lord, with nothing ever mentioned proportional to a Rapture of the Church. What those who have come here to state their case relative to the timing of the Rapture is really on about is the timing for the return of the Lord. As there is no one who knows when the Lord is going to return, all that those who come to this BlogSpot and argue about the timing for the return of the Lord are doing is beating their heads up against a brick wall. As only the father knows when the Lord is going to return, then what is all of this argument over? Furthermore, it does not seem to be very likely that the Lord is going to return until the remainder of the prophecies are fullfilled SEVEN YEARS after the signing of the covenant of Daniel Chapter 9, Verse 27. It will be at that time that he will take the Antichrist and the False Prophet and throw them where they belong into the Lake of Fire. After that, there will be a thousand years of peace here on the earth. That is the good news, while the bad news it gets just about as bad as it can be. Mid way through the seven years, the Antichrist makes a move into the newly built temple in Jerusalem. From there proclaims himself a God reincarnate here on the earth. It is after that time that God gets quite annoyed with the Antichrist and says enough is enough and the Great Tribulation begins. Now this time is going to be quite trying for all concerned who happen to be still alive here on the planet earth. The reality of the matter is there will not be one section of the earth that is not going to remain unaffected by one natural disaster after another. The worst part being that because everyone is going to be in a great deal of strife there is going to be no one that is going to be of any assistance whatsoever to anyone else, as everyone will have enough problems of their own to deal with. As that is the case, there are those who are going to suggest that the Lord is going to return back here on the earth before the seven years starts, or midway through the seven years, and then call it a Rapture of the Church. Guess what, it is not going to happen, so there is no point at all in thinking that it might, for to do so it just to get ones hopes up without having any real rhyme of reason for doing so. For those who are saying that I am scaremongering with the above comments, then so be it. However, that is what the word of God is saying. As that is the case, my best advice would be to just forget about a Rapture, as it is not going to happen.
Part 1
Those who think that there is going to be a Rapture are simply confusing it with the Day of the Lord and as there is no one who knows when the Lord is going to return there is no reason to argue at all. That is not to say that there is still something that I still find to be somewhat confusing myself, when does the 42 month reign of the Antichrist begin? There are those who may say that it begins when then Revised Roman Empire gets their leader, yet there are others who would say that it begins after the signing of the covenant of Daniel, and yet again, there are others who may say that it begins just before or just after he moves into the temple. I will do a little search just to see what I am able to come up with, This was the best answer that I could find as it seems to indicate that the 42 terror reign of the Antichrist begins after he moves into the temple. However, instead of 42 months he actually reigns for the entire seven year period after the signing of the covenant of Daniel. Question: If the man Antichrist and the Beast Out of Bottomless Pit are one, how is it that the Antichrist reigns 7 years and the Beast Out of the Abyss reigns 3 and 1/2 years? Response: As to the apparent discrepancy between the seven years of antichrist's rule and the 3.5 years, the first thing to note is that while the Tribulation lasts for seven years, the Great Tribulation is the second half of that period, 3.5 years, etc. It will be helpful here to insert a passage from part 3A of the Coming Tribulation series which collects the pertinent passages: The Forty-Two Months (of Rev.11:1-2: This period of time wherein the gentiles will "trample" Jerusalem is, as explained above, a reference to the Great Tribulation (which commences with the seventh trumpet directly after the termination of the two-witness ministry discussed in chapter eleven). Our Lord makes a similar reference to the trampling of Jerusalem by gentiles in Luke 21:24, and tells us that this situation of gentile intrusion and conquest will continue "until the gentiles' times have been fulfilled", that is, until His Second Advent brings antichrist's control of Israel and Jerusalem to a violent and immediate conclusion. It will be useful at this point to summarize the various scriptural designations for the forty-two month time period covered by the Great Tribulation: In Daniel 7:25, the saints of the Most High (i.e., believers) are said to be handed over into the power of the little horn (i.e., antichrist and the Great Persecution) for "a time, times, and half a time", a biblical way of expressing the three and one half years of the Great Tribulation. In Daniel 9:26, "the people of the prince which is to come" (i.e., antichrist as the ruler of revived Rome) will make a treaty during the last "seven" and break it in the middle of the "seven", that is, during middle of the seven years at the outset of the Great Tribulation. In Daniel 12:7, the angel speaking with Daniel declares that it will be "a time, times, and half a time" before the persecutions stop and everything comes to an end, that is, the Great Tribulation will last three and one half years.
Part 2
In Revelation 11:2, the gentiles (i.e., the army of antichrist) will afflict Jerusalem for 42 months, that is, during the entire three and a half year period of the Great Tribulation (albeit under varying circumstances). In Revelation 12:6, the woman Israel is said to be protected for 1,260 days, that is, during the whole 42 months of the Great Tribulation (expressed in standard 30 day months). In Revelation 12:14, the woman Israel is said to be protected for a time, times, and half a time, that is, during this same period of the Great Tribulation's three and a half years. In Revelation 13:5, the unbridled reign of antichrist is said to last for 42 months, that is, for the duration of the Great Tribulation. The last passage here is the one at the root of your question. The Greek of Revelation 13:5b (and the text printed in many Greek versions is not entirely correct: Sinaiticus [Aleph] has the correct reading) states "it was given to him (i.e., the beast) to do what he wishes for forty two months". The precise language here is in complete agreement with what we find in Daniel 11:36 "then the king (i.e., antichrist) will do as he pleases" (with the Hebrew phrase cirtsono, ×›×¨×¦×•× ×•, being an exact equivalent of the Greek ho thelei, o( qe/lei). Clearly, in Daniel chapter 11 antichrist has already completed two campaigns against the southern alliance by the time we reach this verse, so that he has not only been "reigning" for some time, but has also engaged in major military aggression before the period of being able to fully "work his will" begins. And that is the essence of the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation - there is no longer any restraint upon antichrist, all other major opposition in the world having been dealt with in one form or another. Among the many horrors which follow is the Great Persecution which will yield more martyrs for Jesus Christ than all persecutions since slaying of Abel put together (cf. Rev.7:9-14). Antichrist's gaining of control over Babylon, his seizure of revived Rome, and his successful conquest of the southern Egyptian led alliance all happen within the first half of the seven years, leaving him with a free hand to persecute the people of God during the last three and a half years - and that is why this 42 month period is called "The Great Tribulation" (cf. Dan.12:1; Matt.24:21). In God's great grace and mercy, may we be spared from that day, but if it be our lot to suffer through it, may we be blessed to do so in a way that brings honor and glory to our dear Savior who suffered so much for us.
Anonymous,
Thank you very much for your reply.
Unfulfilled Prophecy by definition is something that we cannot be overtly dogmatic about.
It has been suggested that perhaps we are in some kind of argument?
Surely we can discuss these things without being 'hot under the collar?'
I can't quite understand believers that get upset about the rapture. Those that won't discuss it etc. I believe as many others do that it is a great biblical truth.
Please remember I have only believed in the rapture for about two years. A believer for just over ten years.
I may see the wood,you might see the trees?
We must remember to be humble at all times as God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble; 1 Peter 5.5.
You most certainly are not without biblical knowledge.
Often times it boggles my brain to the nth degree that I believe the Creator of the vast expanse of the observable universe and beyond became a baby!! I scarce can take it in! These things are to wonderful for me and beyond me!
King Solomon exclaimed 'Behold the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; 1 Kings 8.27.
Oh what a simple soul I am!
I have been very busy at work today and will be over the next two or three days, but I will with prayerful consideration consider this matter in greater depth, if indeed it is possible.
Remember; 'Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.' Proverbs 27.17.
Yours in Christ
Colin
Anonymous no.2. It helped me to go from the middle of the 7 year deal at the aod and work back to the signing with Israel. That’s the first half of the 7 years called 1260days when the 2 witneses start work (killed in the midst of the week)and the 144000k are busy preaching. The antichrist gets a fatal head wound and dies at some point when fighting with the other ten heads of the Rome beast no.4 in a world war. Possessed by Abadon or Satan the beast out of the pit and the antichrist they are the same guy when he rises back to life from the pit, who is called the beast along with an army of demons, that’s at the 5th trumpet. The false prophet makes an image of him and gives out the 666. Mr 666 breaks the 7 year deal when he goes into the temple and wants worship and that ends the first half of the seven years of his rule and the 7th trumpet that contains the final 7 bowl judgments is sounded.
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This last half of the 7 years is called the 42 months when things get really nasty when the final 7 bowls are poured out until Jesus returns after the final 7th bowl and kills the beast and his armies at armagedon. There is a very bad quake in the midst of the 7 years that kills a big part of Jerusalem, horrible stuff and I found that there are a few cosmic signs as well as bad quakes with famine, drought and pestilences, really nasty stuff in the first half as well as the second half, with not just one at the end. Theres more to it than that but its like some scafolding to build off to work out all the other stuff. I agree with you that I read there is a lot to be scared of all the way through the seven year deal, but its really, really, really bad when those last 7 bowls are poured out. The death toll is unable to be numbered its so high and that’s still in the first half of the 7 years . God said he had to shorten the time to just 7 years to make sure there would be a remnant alive at the return of Jesus to the earth. Ive been told I scaremonger too, but its no good pretending because it is plain to see in the Bible. We got to face the facts but its not a good thot, and its coming real fast upon the whole earth except for Israel who will be ok until the 7 year deal gets broken half way thro – world war and drought for the first half from the two witneses as well as fire from heaven for the rest of us and we will know for sure Jesus wont come back until the last bowl is done at the end of the last half of the 7 years. Hope that helps you sort out the gaf? Phew!
Anonmous no.2 If you are still about???? mustnt forget it will be really bad for Israel with the Gogmagog war in Ezekeil but thats why I reckon the antichrist rises to cut them a deal after it so which is when the first half of the7 year starts, so to start off they will be the only part of the world not having wars famines droughts until the beast goes into the Temple in the middle of the 7 years wanting to be worshiped, thats when it gets nix for Israel and the doo doo realy hits the fan. Well it wont be boring stayin alive, stayin alive------:) What the eck, they can only kill us once, its the little kids I feel for they will be so scared poor little rugrats, me too :/
Am I scarin ya? ---- really sorry but Im like you and just try to face facts, at least we now itll end after the last bowl in the last half when Jesus comes back, itll pass -- then -- GLORY! :)
I guess Im talkin to myself as this is way down the list now. No one says much about how they feel and I wonder if they are as scared as me. Yea, of course I am trusting , but I am alergic to pain and being hungry. theres some old mine shafts I know in woods with running water thro the roof. Ive got a wet suit and a dry suit ready, no place for fashion. Theres a small river near with fish in, so fish and leaves might be tasty when my grub runs out. Im thinking to put all my gear down there ready for the off, and hope it stays a safe hide thro the quakes. If I go in deep enough it might not be as cold but if I light a fire, will the smoke leek out and give me away??? Wow I have scaremongered myself now, brave talk but feeling windy now. Keep safe and keep ahead! Not much longer to wait.
Hope the scafolding I told you about helps /:)tip hat!
Anonymous,
Further to our discourse,from my understanding (thus far) of the prophetic Word; Matthew 24.31 describes the 'gathering of the saints'-Not of Israel. Israel has and is being gathered SLOWLY. Part will be led by the Lord into the wilderness, and there will be pleaded with. 'I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face'; Ezekiel 20.34-35 (please read the full context).Others will be gathered by the Gentile nations, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts'; Isaiah 66.20, and brought as a 'present unto the Lord of hosts'; Isaiah 18.7.
This is a very different thing from being gathered by angels.
And in the words of B.W.Newton: Moreover,the moment which the Lord is here speaking of in Matthew 24.31 is one of visitation in judgment upon Israel.
Mr Newton's works on Israel and the coming Millenial Kingdom can be obtained from the Sovereign Grace Advent Testimony in Chelmsford.
I have only just yesterday learnt that, that great bible expositor Matthew Henry says that the covenant in Daniel 9.27 was made by the Lord Jesus Christ. If this is true then the first 3 1/2 years have gone and there is only 3 1/2 years tribulation to come. Is the Dome on the Rock the Abomination of Desolation? This is standing on the 'Holy Place'. Paul must have been talking of the EXISTING temple in 2 Thess 2.4? Is the son of perdition THE antichrist? I believe it was J.N.Darby in 1849 who was the first to introduce a personal singular antichrist. Is Mohammed THE false prophet in the Revelation? I must prayerfully read and study. I am thinking aloud here and, believe that the futurist hyper-dispensationalists have led us down a blind alley in everything and confused and messed things up big time in all these things. I believe the dreaded 'MARK' to be spiritual. As has been said many times here, true believers wouldn't take any mark, read; 'Foxes Book Of Martyrs'
Does the bible speak of a seven year peace treaty?
Any help here would be greatly appreciated.
Time is against me Colin so I only have chance just now to look at the Bible itself. Matthew Henry sounds like he was a preterist to me of very odd ideas that bypass too many Bible facts. The Dome cant possibly be the aod if Gods gift of common sense prevails. The 7 yrs isn’t said to be split up by a gap of time, only into two following parts, as it’s the final week with 69 already fulfilled exact. If so who were the 2 witnesses that begin to work for 1260 days at the start of the 7 years, just so they can die in the middle. Has Elijah been, not that I have heard. The 14400k begin before the 7 years can happen. Indeed the ten toes are yet to form yet, and so much more is neglected that I must be clear and say that’s a nonsense. It is all yet future for certain.
Its true that theres going to be a regenerating of the remnant of Jews (saints or elect) before the regather. By memory 2/3rds of the Jews, the poor souls, are to die with only 1/3rd left to go into the land. (like with Moses) Now quickly, its plain in Deut 29 and 30. Is.27:12. Is 43:5. Jer 16:14 but theres much more. What I find is a problem when men put our favourite ideas into a verse. Each must give account to God, not me, but I steer very clear of the very new revisionism which they call Progressive Dispensations which isn’t progress or disp to me, where all this new reformation stuff is coming from called Emerging (and other names). They try to mix together all views like liberal and conservative. Well if it don’t work in governing a country, it wont work with the Bible, its like iron and clay as it wont cleave, it seems to work but God don’t like mix. That’s what I think you might mean by hyper?
Jesus the man God is who we are waiting for. As a man he can only be in one place at a time, do you think? Now it does say in Is 27:12 – one by one, but that is by the east, the west, the north and the south who are not just compass points but are Angels of God of the four winds. This is at the sound of a trumpet in verse 13 when the Jews are about to perish in what I think is the area of Bozra (not to sure) but that general area.Not just that but Jesus is going to BRING which is an order to the angels sent out as fishers and hunters which is in Jer16:16 , and these are the angels he appoints to do the job, as he himself threshes the land from the river of Egypt over to the River Euphrates. This is where the blood on his garments come from.
Very rough but I hope enough to show why I am still totally confident Matt24:31 concerns the 2nd regathering of Israel from the four corners of the world, yes for judgment and rescue and finally restoration for the remnant 1/3rd who remain. These will be saved both physically and spiritually for EVER and all the babies they have afterward will all be just like when He created man in Genesis 1as Adam and Eve were meant to be. You see I am back to how Israel/church are both mortal and immortal all at the same time? I think this is where disp comes in but I have a lot to learn yet, but I am sure about what I do know or I say I dont know (no shame in that, getting an answer is easy, its asking the right question I find hard.) Sorry I cant stay longer, I didn’t mean to stay at all really, that’s why I didn’t bother with a name, but it is confusing with so many anonymous. I don’t want my own name up, so in this comment I shall give glory to God and say I am saved by Gods Gracealone.(by faith not works)
I nearly forgot about the 7 year PEACE treaty Q Colin.
No it only says confirm a covenant which seems to me to suggest it backs up something already known. Ive wondered if it’s the Land Covenant, but 7 years seems a bit short a time for that? Daniel does say a 7 year deal, but peace isn’t mentioned, it’s a guess I think because of the rider with only a bow and no arrows. But that’s not with Jesus unless you think its him on the white horse, and I don’t see that at all because it puts Jesus on the earth making deals on the devils earth before he returns, thats back to front and makes a joke of the return to earth of Jesus. That’s but common sense to me. The Bible says the spirit of antichrist has always been around, but 2Thes2:3 plainly states a particular man THAT man of sin, son of perdition which is without doubt a single person who is the devils version of Gods son Jesus on earth. This man is the devils own son that he will one day possess, he even dies and is brought back to life after a faltal head wound. The devil is a copy cat wanting to be like God with lots of I wills. The spirit of antichrist is like the dear holy spirit, the fatherdevil is like our beloved heavenly father and instead of Jesus the son is this son of perdition,No this is a real man alright to me.
God bless you Colin in all your searching and let common sense work . Don’t forget, if we lack wisdom, we are to ask of God and be prepared to have a change of mind all over the place. :)
From Gracealone
Gracealone/Bob & anybody else that should frequent the nether regions of Bob's blog!
Thanks Anonymous for that. Presently I am very busy in work etc, and in time would like to consider other issues you have mentioned.
I am aware that a change in your understanding of certain prophetic scriptures can have ramifications on other truths that the bible teaches.
Regards the two witnesses, does the bible actually say anywhere that they begin their ministry at the start of the seven years, or is that an assumption? Also does the bible say that the sealing of the 144,000 takes place before the seven years?
The bible clearly teaches that the Lord WILL build His temple as said in Zechariah 6.13. But I struggle sometimes to contemplate that the world, especially the surrounding Islamic nations are going to idly sit by and watch Israel build a temple this side of the Millenial reign. But what do I know?
As regards hyper dispensationalists, I believe these are those that carve up the scriptures so ordinary people are lost in their understanding of the plain literal teaching of the bible. A good example would be E.W.Bullinger. The dispensationalists teach that Matthew 24 doesn't apply to the Church etc!
There are things I cant comment yet on Colin due to my ignorance, or maybe a half measure alone I know a bit.
Can you not see about the 2 witnesses? They are to die when the beast comes out of the pit, when he does do, he goes into the Temple in the middle of the Week. This is when he kills them, but they are alive again and raise to heaven. They were gave 1260 days in all to minister and the first half of the 7th week deal is 1260 days long. Am I being hard to follow? Surely they start work at the start of the first half of the 7 called 1260 days for them to be able to die in the middle when that times up. That’s in chapter 11from 1 to 15 Do you see? And you read what they get up to in the first half of the 7. It’s the same with the 144k but they tell us a bit later when they look back to the start. That’s in all chapter 7 and in verse 3 the judgment angels are told not to hurt nothing, don’t start hurting even trees until the 144k are sealed. Then it goes on about them being from the 12 tribes of Israel and name each tribr Juda sealed,12k. Reuben sealed, 12k. Gad sealed, 12k and so on to the last of the twelve Israel tribes. Then skip over to see them again in chapter 14 where its said they are all young men and virgins and servants of the most high. Well it seems the disciples were called this as well, so its pretty certain these young men are doing what the others servants did, and that was preach the gospel of the kingdom. It also helps to see that story is straight followed by an angel also giving out the everlasting gospel, that’s in verses 6 and 7.
Now there is nothing to fret over the muslims they will be long gone when Jesus gets to build his Temple, that is to say the Messiahs Temple. Ive been muddled over this to. Whats to be first is the Tribulation temple on the old Moriah site – right? A house that God has not ordered. You might know that Moriah is shorter then Olives and Zion today, with the temple mount site being only 45 acres all told. Well that one will be flattened and I shall tell you for why. When Jesus comes down theres to be an almighty big quake that will raise up a huge mile high mountain with a flat bit on the top to measure over 50 miles. The Messiah Temple shall be 1 mile square and 1 mile hight taking up 640 acres. It will likely be a cube or perhaps a pyramid? This new Mount Zion is going to be the highest of all mountains on earth. Now that’s the Temple Jesus shall build that’s in Zechariah 6 vs 13,14. Can you look up the other verses, I need to get some sleep Im snookered. Don’t know Bullinger and I shall have to think about Matt 24. But do you know, this temple is physical for mortals who have babies, so what to do with the raptured immortals whose like Jesus. No help on that front?
Goodnight Colin. Lets both ask Jesus to teach us what we both want to know. I pray to Father please show Colin all he wants to know about your plans and all you wants him to know to; and me please. In Jesus name, amen. Godnight God bless from Gracealone.
Well now Colin, what a scruffy post that was I rattle off last night, I just hope it was clear because I was really much to tired last night to think let alone write a letter. Life has a habit of catching up and taking over most things, so sad to say I have to end my time here, which has been most enjoyable and thank you for your time to talk with me, I shall continue to think about things.Thank you very much Colin and also to our kind host, from Gracealone. :)
Grace alone,
Thanks again. If however you visit here again, I have considered that the following must make sense?
These witnesses are protected by God (Rev 11.5) through the great tribulation right until the 1260 days finish because they ascended up to heaven in Rev 11.12 and through verse 13 an hour passes and the third woe cometh quickly in verse 14. And THEN the seventh angel sounded in verse 15 when I believe God will make a short work of bringing this 'Day of the Lord' to its fulfillment. So the two witnesses are 'taken up' then just before the wrath of God which would mean these two were doing their work in the second half of the week? I understand then that the witnessing takes part in the great tribulation (2nd part of the week).
Thankyou for your kind prayer and yes many thanks to our kind host.
I have just come back from a three day youth conference in Devon;'Truth for Youth'. I took my 16 year old daughter there. Very good bible teaching apart from the frequent references to our Lord's return,suggesting that it could happen at 'any time' even that it may take place while we were there!
I did ask these teachers to explain the pre-trib secret rapture from the bible, but all we got was a discourse on Jewish weddings etc!
I note that a commentator on Rapture Ready has stated that he believes the rapture could take place this year in 2012! Not date setting exactly, but very close!
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