February 15, 2012
By Michael Snyder
BlacklistedNews.com
Any financial system that is based on debt is doomed to fail. Today, we are living in the greatest debt bubble that the world has ever seen, and if all of a sudden people could not use credit to buy things our economy would immediately ground to a halt. Unfortunately, no debt bubble can last forever. When this current debt bubble finally bursts, faith in the financial system is going to disappear, credit is going to freeze up and there is going to be a massive wave of bank failures. Right now, Greece is a warning sign for the world. Nobody wants to lend money to Greece, the Greek banking system is dying, one out of every four businesses has already shut down, unemployment is soaring and the Greek economy has now been in recession for five years in a row. Sadly, the economic implosion in Greece is rapidly accelerating. The Greek economy shrunk at a 7 percent annual rate during the 4th quarter of 2011. That wasn’t supposed to happen. Things were supposed to be getting better in Greece by now. But instead the Greek depression is getting even worse, and very soon the rest of the world is going to be going through what Greece is currently experiencing.
Unfortunately, most in the mainstream media are treating what is happening in Greece as an “isolated incident” rather than as a very serious warning sign for the world.
Thankfully, there are at least a few reporters out there that are realizing the gravity of the situation. The following is how one reporter from the New York Times recently described what life is like in Greece now….
By many indicators, Greece is devolving into something unprecedented in modern Western experience. A quarter of all Greek companies have gone out of business since 2009, and half of all small businesses in the country say they are unable to meet payroll. The suicide rate increased by 40 percent in the first half of 2011. A barter economy has sprung up, as people try to work around a broken financial system. Nearly half the population under 25 is unemployed. Last September, organizers of a government-sponsored seminar on emigrating to Australia, an event that drew 42 people a year earlier, were overwhelmed when 12,000 people signed up. Greek bankers told me that people had taken about one-third of their money out of their accounts; many, it seems, were keeping what savings they had under their beds or buried in their backyards. One banker, part of whose job these days is persuading people to keep their money in the bank, said to me, “Who would trust a Greek bank?”
Can you imagine?
Greece is experiencing a full-blown economic collapse and nobody can see a light at the end of the tunnel at this point.
As I have written about previously, the overall rate of unemployment in Greece has now risen above 20 percent and the youth unemployment rate in Greece has soared to an astounding 48 percent.
Deleveraging can be an extremely painful process. Greece has been forced to try to reduce the size of its budget deficit, but every time it cuts government spending that causes economic activity (and thus government revenues) to slow down as well.
Now the EU and the IMF are demanding that even more very painful austerity measures be implemented in Greece even though Greece is already experiencing a full-blown depression.
The EU and the IMF are demanding that Greece fire 15,000 more government workers immediately and a total of 150,000 government workers by 2015.
The EU and the IMF are demanding that wages for government workers be cut by another 20 percent.
The EU and the IMF are demanding that the minimum wage be slashed by more than 20 percent.
The EU and the IMF are also demanding significant reductions in unemployment benefits and pension benefits.
Of course all of those cuts are going to make the short-term economic conditions in Greece even worse.
The rioting, looting and burning of buildings that we are witnessing right now in Greece is likely to continue for quite some time as exasperated citizens attempt to express their frustrations to politicians that simply do not seem to care.
According to the National Confederation of Greek Commerce, recent rioting resulted in damage to 153 businesses in Athens. 45 of those businesses were totally destroyed.
You can view some stunning footage of the current rioting in Greece right here.
Despite all of the austerity measures that have already been implemented, the truth is that Greece is very likely to default soon anyway.
There is a very good chance that the new austerity agreement that the Greek parliament just approved will never be implemented. There are new elections scheduled for April and the current party in power is polling in the single digits.
The new Greek government is likely to look much different from the current one, and nobody knows for sure if the new government will follow through on any of the promises being made by the current government.
In addition, the German parliament must approve this new deal with Greece, and the German parliament is not scheduled to vote on it until February 27th. Considering the mood in Germany right now, approval is not guaranteed.
So there are all kinds of things that could go wrong with the “deals” that are currently being discussed. The truth is that a Greek default in the coming months seems to become more likely by the day.
Some in the financial world almost seem eager for a Greek default. The following is what Jon Moulton, the chairman of Better Capital, recently told CNBC….
“If I was Greek, I wouldn’t be going for these measures, I’d be going for default and getting it over with. Would you like two to three years of pain or 20?”
But a disorderly Greek default would not be a pleasant thing for the global economy at all. A recent article in the Guardian detailed what some of the consequences of a Greek default and exit from the eurozone might be….
But default and “re-drachmatisation” would be a costly and chaotic process. In the long term the euro might be strengthened if some of its weaker members headed for the door. But in the short term banks across the eurozone might have to be closed to prevent a run on the single currency as investors speculated about which country might be next. A new wave of bank nationalisations would be likely to follow as lenders counted their losses on now worthless Greek debt.
Capital controls would have to be imposed and borders shut to stop money flooding out of Greece. Portugal, Italy and Spain would come under intense pressure from investors wary about the risk of another victim. Banks everywhere, already reluctant to lend, would cut back hard, nervous about their exposure to the bonds of all Europe’s crisis-hit states.
And the financial crisis in Europe is going to continue to spread well beyond Greece. Moody’s Investors Service just downgraded the credit ratings of six European nations. The following is how Bloomberg described the downgrades….
Spain was downgraded to A3 from A1 with a negative outlook, Italy was downgraded to A3 from A2 with a negative outlook and Portugal was downgraded to Ba3 from Ba2 with a negative outlook, Moody’s said. It also reduced the ratings of Slovakia, Slovenia and Malta.
Countries such as Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Hungary are heading down the exact same road that Greece has gone. Greece was the first one to experience a full-blown depression, but soon Greece will have a lot of company.
Greece is most definitely a warning sign for the world. If you keep recklessly piling up debt, eventually a day of reckoning comes. It is inevitable.
But Barack Obama does not seem to understand this. He continues to pile another 150 million dollars on to our national debt every single hour. He knows that cutting spending significantly right now would hurt the economy and that would significantly hurt his chances for another term.
Needless to say, Barack Obama is not likely to do anything that is going to significantly hurt his chances for another four years in the White House.
So we continue to roll on toward disaster.
The U.S. financial system is like a car with no brakes that is heading straight toward a 5,000 foot drop at 100 miles an hour.
It is all going to seem like fun and games to some people until we hit the canyon floor.
Once that happens, nobody will be laughing.
43 comments:
Hello Colin
In ref. to thread re. the Pretrib Pastor job.
While I respect your concern and desire for the truth, as a pretrib dispensationalist, I read the reason for your rejection as surprising. “There are only one people of God”. I see this as a Biblical ‘non-issue’.
It is a fact that God ‘called out’ (synagogue/ecclesia) only one people from among all the nations of the earth. For them He prepared the eternal Kingdom of God/heaven on earth ruled by The Messiah. It was to the Israelites that the Olivet discourse was presented prior to the cross, resurrection and ascension.
The Church is NOT a nation/people but the Body/Bride of Christ, a ‘spiritual man’ each believing Jew and Gentile baptised INTO the Body at conversion by the Holy Spirit creating the unique Church whose citizenship is in heaven, not on earth.
Distinct and different with no competition.
Sue :)
Hi there Friends; there was a time that the Greeks were offered the Mark of the Beast to replace cash for buying and selling. At that stage as they chose to reject it now makes me think that all that we are seeing going on with Greece is nothing much more than a test case for the implant, and that contrary to what others are saying the current crisis is not going to spread at all but will simply be confined to Greece alone. God bless you all in your search for the truth.
Sue,
If the Olivet Discourse was only for the Israelites/Jews as I believe you are saying,which is my understanding that most if not all pre trib rapture teachers would have us believe, could you advise me as to what else in the gospel narratives doesn't apply to me as a Gentile Christian?
Was not the Lord rejected by the accredited leaders of Israel in Matthew 23? Who was He addressing in chapter 24? Surely not unbelieving Jews/Israelites?
The Christian Church was Jewish at it's inception-they obeyed the Great Commission and His salvation came to us Gentiles because of Israel's rejection. We know however from Scripture that God has not finished with Israel; Romans 11 etc.
The disciples that the Lord Jesus was addressing upon Olivet are representing the Church, they were the 'called out ones'.
No unbelieving Jew today would take notice of His solemn warnings in chapter 24, only blood bought believers, Jew and Gentile alike!
If per chance I was in Jerusalem when these great calamities were to happen in Matt 24. I would obey His Words,whereas surely unbelieving Israelites wouldn't because only 'My sheep hear My voice'.
It is my earnest prayer that pre-trib believers would see through this man made theory.
Have you ever read Corrie Ten Boom's 1974 letter?
Yours in Christ
Colin
Hello Colin
2Thess.3:16 ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Jesus came from The Universal Kingdom of God in Heaven to Israel, at the appointed time, to bring in The Kingdom of Heaven/God on earth promised to Abraham, with Jesus ruling as Messiah. This is the Gospel of the Kingdom preached by John the Baptist and the Disciples. BEFORE the substitutionary sacrifice for Justification from sin THE Gospel (of Paul)
Matt 24 Tribulation is the result of Matt 23 which is the Messiah’s temporary rejection of NATIONAL Israel, as told to the prophets like Daniel, as a result of their rejection of Him.
Matt.23 sited just two days before the crucifixion. In vs.1 Jesus was speaking to the Jewish multitude and His Jewish disciples of Israel.
Vs. 2 - the content of the discussion concerned the Jewish religious leaders the Scribes and the Pharisees.
Vs.24 Jesus words are directed at the same group of Scribes and Phariees, who as leaders and official representatives of the nation of Israel; rejected the Messiah. In turn, the Messiah is temporarily rejecting them, the physical Nation of Israel.(Romans 9,10,11) NOT the believing Jewish remnant who will eventually become the Church/Body/Bride of Christ when the Holy Spirit came to baptize each believer INTO the unique Church – a spiritual man in Acts 2 at Pentecost.
Matt 23: 36-39 Jesus announces judgment of the blindness of the Pharisees and blindness of the Nation of Israel.
He tells them they would not see Him again UNTIL they ask Him to return which will be at the end of the 70th Week when they see Him coming on the clouds and every eye shall see Him – it is then, that they shall look upon Him whom they pierced and mourn as for an only son. This is the start of the regeneration of ALL the House of Israel, when they repent and ask Him to return = the 2nd Coming. Matt 24:30,31.
Those Jews in Jerusalem at the time of the AoD ARE ‘sheep’i.e. believers, (but not members of the Church as she was completed and removed pretrib) These Jews will come to faith as a direct result of the Time of Jacob’s Trouble, the purpose of which is to bring the Nation of Israel to repentance and regeneration. It is these who flee to Petra, a place God has provided for them. However, there is still the 42 months to go until the Nation of Israel, as a whole ‘House’ ask Messiah to return, after a fearful time of judgments. Those who manage to endure (survive) until the end will be saved (physically) and enter the Millennium to begin repopulating the Land of Israel as a nation of priests to the Gentile nations.
Pretrib is based on the grammatical evidence of the Disciples, who taught Jesus could return any moment in THEIR lifetime, using personal pronouns. Plus the fact that the Church is not destined for wrath, 1Thess1:10 as she has already been judged in Christ. ONLY Premill/pretrib scenario fits this expectancy.
I am wearied of presenting factual evidence against the Darby, MacDonald, Lacunza etc; etc fallacies (on Bob's site)that are but money spinning opportunities for the authors. Corrie Ten Boom was a remarkable lady and worthy of note. That does not extend to her faulty eschatology.
If Pre-Trib is a ‘man made theory’; then it is down to the Disciples for giving us their expectation for an imminent blessed Hope 2000 years ago. Post-Trib is mans invention with its roots in Augustin's allegorical interpretation for Roman Catholicism. The Literal Premill/Pretrib hermeneutic has never suited their dogmas such as Purgatory.
Your sister in Jesus
Sue :)
First we cannot hold onto a belief that is not clearly taught in scripture. Nowhere do the Lord Jesus or the apostles state Jesus will return for the saints BEFORE the tribulation. If it is not clearly taught then to teach it is to teach an assumption not doctrine.
To state the apostles believed in an any moment coming (Imminent) is just not so. Peter was told by the Lord he would die when he was an old man. How could Peter expect to be raptured at any moment when he knew full well he was going to die before the Lord returned.
How could Paul expect an any moment rapture when the Lord told him in Acts he would preach in Rome? Was Jesus kidding? Of course not. I am not interested in the Darby, Mcdonald thing. This is scripture. Post trib is scriptural because Jesus taught it. He never once mentioned coming at any other time. I know the old and worn argument that on the Mount of Olives Jesus was talking to Jews in Matthew 24. When wasn't he talking to Jews?? The men he spoke to in Matt 24 were his disciples, men who 2 days later shared the passover meal with him when he told them as often as you do this do it in rememberance of me. So was he just speaking to Jews then about the Passover or was he talking to his followers.
Do we disregard the Lord's supper because he was only sitting around the table with Jews? It's nonsense.
Yet we are expected to believe the people he spoke to one day and the things he said to them then are to be disregarded by the church because he was simply speaking to Jews, but we are to take on board and believe what he said and did with the same people two days later are also for us.
Where do we discover this wisdom in disecting which part of scripture and the Lord's words are for Jews and the other is for us?
What utter clutching at straws!
I am sorry but Pre trib teachers and supporters jump through hoops to prove their belief but offer not one scripture showing Jesus or the apostles actually stating Jesus will take us out before the final 7 years begin. Nowhere!
But Jesus warned his coming would be like the lightening...visible to all, noisy...a shout a trumpet etc. and we are expected to insert a caveat, "but only the believers will hear it". Or if they do hear it it will be before the seven years, when Jesus clearly stated this would take place after the tribulation. Never mind the argument about "Oh well then you can count the days to the rapture". Paul said in 1 Thes 5 we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us like a thief. It will to unbelievers..but not to those of us who read the signs and then "Look up".
Be blessed.
Hello Bob
Paul instituted the Last Supper for the Church in 1Cor 11:23-34 as a memorial to the Cross, which we are to remember ‘til He come’.
The time of Peter’s death makes not a jot of difference to imminency. Peter and the disciples all expected him to die when James did. He lived his life, like Paul expecting to die for the faith at any moment. The imminent Rapture could have happened at any moment; they were looking and watching for Jesus to return for THEM and their use of the PRESENT tense and personal pronouns make that very plain. If you were reading a newspaper report about the expected arrival of a king, you would get that sense very easily. Prophecy was fulfilled literally exactly as written; and unfulfilled prophecy will be fulfilled literally exactly as it written.
Imminency does not mean ‘soon’ it has no time frame, it is overhanging or pending. Prophecy MAY happen, but it doesn’t HAVE to happen before an imminent event.
Besides which, Jesus did not say Peter would die when He was ‘old’. Jesus was merely making a comparison between younger and older. In any even, Peter was already ‘older’ and he died at middle age around 47. He certainly was not ‘advanced to great age’ and Jesus didn’t say he would be.
WE agree what Jesus' return to the earth will be like – no question. The Church will return with him from out of heaven. The Rapture is not about when Jesus returns to earth, it does not affect the 2nd coming in any way. The dead in Christ are resurrected while the living in Christ are changed from corruptible flesh to an incorruptible body and together they are caught up from the earth to be where Jesus is up in the air. The syntax describes a totally different event to Jesus’ return to earth to rescue the Jews from the A/c.
God bless.
Sue
Well as usual Sue, we disagree. I believe you are clutching at straws attempting to prove through being smart with words what you cannot prove by providing a clear scriptural reference from the Lord himself. His disciples asked for the signs of his parousia his presence. He replied he would return after the tribulation.
Not one mention in any of his teachings that he would reurn before the seven years.
We just go round and around, Sue.
I ask for scriptures you reply with words and no substance.
For the sake of peace I shall not answer any more as there are others reading this who may think we are getting angry when In fact this is a discussion we all have had for ever! What we come down to is we love the Lord, we love each other and we jointly await his return. See you there. Be very blessed my sister.
Hello Bob
(You always said I liked the last word) :)
Here is another thing we can agree on. Jesus said ne’er a word about the Rapture, just like He said ne’er a word about the Church.
After His resurrection, it is plain that the disciples thought Jesus was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel; that is the rule of God on earth in Israel in Acts 1:6
Not one of the Disciples knew about the Church or her sudden removal from earth. Jesus told them it was not for them to know in vs 7.
Everything about the Church and its purpose was kept hidden by God until Christ first made it known to Paul at his commissioning. Colossians 1:25-27.
That’s why we can find nothing spoken by Jesus in the Gospels; only the fact that he would return, in spectacular fashion, back to the earth, just before He was about to leave for heaven. In addition He told them they had to tarry in Jerusalem to wait for the Holy Spirit who would abide within them.
Paul described both the Church and the Rapture as a ‘mystery’ something God had hidden until the appointed time, and it was given only to Paul to announce them.
Eph 6:19 to make known the mystery of the Gospel.
1Cor15:31 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed…
Eph3:2-11 Christ, by revelation made known to Paul the mystery…
Vs.3That we may read about the mystery of Christ
Eph 5:32.Christ and the Church was the mystery given to Paul to reveal.
The Gospel to all nations - "To the Jew first"
“The essence, then, of the mystery of the church is that, through this new assembly, God would include all people who would believe, both Jews and Gentiles. They would, in a sense, become one:
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26-28 See also Ephesians 2:14)
The church is distinguished from Israel in many ways. One example would be that it is called the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:14-27; Ephesians 12:4)”.”
http://ldolphin.org/kingdom/ch2.html
So Bob, its not about my way with Words, rather it is about what IS written about this subject in THE Word.
God bless
Sue :)
Hi Bob and other's. This Rapture thing really saddens me, because as with a church body I went to, they really believed that we would all be taken to safty. Perhaps we should ask ourselves are we scared that we will suffer which is why we want to be taken out?????!!!! I do not know when it will happen but I firmly believe that all faithful, Spirit filled, devoted believers will truly suffer in one way or another, because are job is to finish the job we have to do in the name of Yeshua.We must stand up and point other's who follow the antichrist, to The Lord God Almighty, and we will suffer as He did, and said we would. We really do not know in this country what it is like to be persecuted unto death! I do not understand why the heads of the church do not warn it's congregations of the truth?
Now is the time, if ever there was one to come before the Lord and ask for strength, courage and understanding. God bless you all and our beloved Israel.
Hello Bob and Sue,
Bob! I don't detect any anger in this discussion whatsoever!
Sue thanks for your reply.
I often used to think debates were without value because the two opposing sides would always come to the debate to 'fight their corner'. It mattered not whether they were right or wrong, they had to win the debate!
But then I realised it was the onlookers whom were the ones that would benefit. I now think that these on-line conversations have much value because often we don't know who is reading.
I have only been a post trib believer for about 4 months now. And in no small measure I thank men like Bob for debunking the pre trib false doctrine. There are great scriptural doctrines that are clearly taught esp. Salvation,Justification and sanctification etc. These great biblical truths can be clearly expounded from the written Word.
If some one could lead me through the Abiding Word of God and demonstrate clearly from Scripture that the Lord Jesus Christ is going to come for His people in a secret rapture before the tribulation period then I will gladly listen,and may well be persuaded.
I am no qualified theologian or a product of bible school (thank God). I am a 51 year old second hand car dealer.(Left school at 15 with abysmal qualifications)and fell into 'doing up' and buying and selling second hand cars as a business (I know this is irrelevant-but having said that it may give you some idea of where I am coming from-I kept buying and selling until I built up some money) I was conned out of just over £10,000. That was a lot of money 30 years ago). This was a particularly dark time for me, as I was seriously considering retribution of a kind. Actually it is a lot of money these days! How did this happen? I was led astray by false promises. You could also say greed got the better of me. However along with some other similar incidents afterwards I soon learnt not to trust any one. Then about 11 years ago I put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and NOT man. How can or do I trust Him? By READING,BELIEVING AND STUDYING HIS WORD!
Just a few days ago I was involved in a lively and very good natured discourse with two pre-trib teachers.
I asked them from Scripture to explain this 'secret rapture' before the tribulation. I was given a leaflet authored by Renald E Showers;'Behold the Bridegroom Comes!' As they proceeded to teach the secret rapture I listened courteously to these two men teaching me about the seven day Jewish wedding ceremony. Very interesting it was to listen to. However afterward I kept asking;'where in my bible is this taught?' In fairness Mr Showers only ever describes his teaching as an analogy! But these teachers' were using this in tandem with their interpretations of God's Word to convince me that the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture is biblical.
I have repeated many times here as well as other places; Is it a light thing to teach false doctrine? I believe that Sue as well as many others are very sincere in what they believe, however it IS possible to be sincerely wrong. Our blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ warned us against deception. Could this teaching be one such deception? I believe so.
Part 1
Re: The Church is NOT a nation/people but the Body/Bride of Christ, a ‘spiritual man’ each believing Jew and Gentile baptized INTO the Body at conversion by the Holy Spirit creating the unique Church whose citizenship is in heaven, not on earth.
1 Peter 2:9—But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an HOLY NATION, a peculiar people; that ye should show forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
1 Peter 2:10—Which in TIME PAST [were] NOT A PEOPLE, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
This is not to say that the Church is not the Body/Bride of Christ: but to add that the church is also a nation/people.
Re: “Pretrib is based on the grammatical evidence of the Disciples, who taught Jesus could return any moment in THEIR lifetime, using personal pronouns.
I’m sorry but grammatical evidence: personal pronouns or other wise of the Disciples does not confirm they taught Jesus could return any moment in their lifetime. 2 Peter actually talks about the delay of the second coming so more people will have a chance to be saved.
2 Peter 3:9—the Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness: but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
He is not coming until all who will and can be saved is saved.
Paul certainly did not teach Christ would be coming the second time in his day. He taught that the falling away and the son of perdition would be revealed before Christ coming and our gathering to him.
2 Th 2:1—Now we beseech you brethren, by THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, and [by] OUR GATHERING together unto him, 2:2—don’t be troubled that THE DAY OF CHRIST is at hand. Clearly Paul (the Christian) is saying don’t worry the day of Christ is not at hand there are things that need to happen first.
Undoubtedly the Christians of that day were waiting on the coming of Christ to be gathered together unto him (the catching away).
Re: every eye shall see him:
“The Rapture is not about when Jesus returns to earth, it does not affect the 2nd coming in any way. The dead in Christ are resurrected while the living in Christ are changed from corruptible flesh to an incorruptible body and together they are caught up from the earth to be where Jesus is up in the air.”
“He tells them they would not see Him again UNTIL they ask Him to return which will be at the end of the 70th Week when they see Him coming on the clouds and every eye shall see Him.”
In Revelation 1:1 John is talking to the seven churches and relaying the message Christ gave him to show his servants (Christians/church). Likewise when he spoke in Rev 1:7 he was speaking to his servants (believers in Christ). He was not talking to the unbelieving Jew.
Rev 1:4—John to the seven churches—And from Jesus Christ… (1:5) the first begotten of the dead; unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood. Rev.1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Part 2
The most popular verse pre-tribbers use to confirm a pre-tribulation rapture is: 1 Th 4:17—Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Notice in 1 Th 4:15—just two verses above—For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we (including himself and generally speaking of Christians) WHICH ARE ALIVE AND REMAIN UNTO “THE COMING OF THE LORD” shall not prevent them which are asleep.
According to this scripture the “catching away” will be at the COMING OF THE LORD. Not before and not after.
(but not members of the Church as she was completed and removed pretrib). If this statement is true: the church is complete, then what about the so called tribulation saints? Can something be added to something that is already complete?
Mal. 3:2—Who may abide the day of his COMING? And who shall stand when he APPEARETH? Is this question directed to the Jews?
1 Cr 7:7—But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward, they that are Christ’s at his COMING.
If his coming is not the rapture of the church then who are they that are his at his coming: the Jews?
2 Ti 4:8—Laid up for me a crown of righteousness, the Lord, shall give me at that day: and unto all them that love his APPEARING. Paul says here that he will be there to receive his crown of righteousness the same day as everyone who loves Christ appearing/coming. I would think since Paul was martyred and he was an apostle that he would deserve to get his crown at the time of the rapture. But he doesn’t say that: he says he will get his crown at the appearing of Christ.
DG
Lol! Yes my dearly beloved sister you DO like the last word.
I'll let you have it.
Time will tell which of us is correct re the great snatch but let's get the gospel out along with evidence for the fact we are in the end times. The day may come when we will not have the freedom to proclaim the gospel and the warning of coming judgment.
Love you loads in the Lord and thanks for the spar. x
Hello DG
A vital part of interpretation of any piece of writing is CONTEXT! The context of my comment referred to an EARTHLY nation regarding the New Covenant God made with Israel in Jer 31:31 The promise of A LAND (Israel), a Seed (Jesus) and a Blessing (THE New Covenant).
1Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Clearly a spiritual ‘nation’ in the sense of “a multitude (whether of men or of beasts) associated or living together a) a company, troop, swarm
Israel as a MORTAL nation on planet earth will inherit Greater Israel during the Millennium of Messiah’s rule; with His spiritual IMMORTAL Bride the Church.
***The question has already been asked elsewhere. “HOW can Israel/church be both mortal and immortal at one and the same time? Israel marries; they have children on earth in the Land of Israel. The Church has an immortal body and do not marry but are like Jesus with her citizenship in heaven.***
Grammar, history, context AND Literal common sense are all vital to accurate
interpretation.
The Mystery of the Church and the mystery of her Rapture is not discussed in the Gospels. Jesus doesn’t mention a word about it. He only spoke of His return to earth. It was given only to Paul, to reveal in God’s own time. Please see my previous post.
2Thess 2:2 ‘the day of Christ’ refers to the Tribulation, not the Rapture. Read correctly these Scriptures are evidence of Pre-trib. Each and every Scripture you have produced to deny Pretrib is by the well trod, familiar pattern of removal from their rightful context = a pretext.
Hello Suzanne
Jesus said that in this world we would have ‘tribulation’ and I promise I have had and still have ‘tribulation’.John 16:33. Matt.13:21; Acts 14:22; Rom 8:35; 2Cor 1:4.
Few, if any sail through life unscathed and untouched by ‘tribulation’. That however, is part of life in a fallen world. It is not THE Tribulation Matt29:29 (definite article) of 70th Week Dan.9:24 otherwise called ‘The Time of JACOB’S Trouble’ Jer.30:7.
When Jesus hung on the cross He said ‘It is finished’ His work was complete. Salvation through His shed blood has washed us clean from all sin past, present and future. There is no more to add, no suffering that will make any difference to the cleansing His Church has had. She does not NEED anything to make her better than He has already made her. She only awaits her immortal body at the Rapture.
The Church has been told that she is not destined for wrath, of any variety, because Jesus took our deserved wrath upon his own Body at Calvary. Romans 5:9.
Hello Colin
It was God who chose the Jewish wedding ceremony as a ‘type’ for the Church. It is a ‘picture book’ account of a truth. If you are too old for ‘pictures’ ask your friends to explain through the Word instead. I find it really helpful for opponents of Pretrib to explain why, from Scripture, they don’t agree. Error in all varieties has been the way the Holy Spirit has chosen to teach me His Truth.
Hello Bob
Thank you for your time and for allowing me to comment. I am now so sharp I might cut myself. ;-)
Maranatha! :)
Hello everyone,
Anonymous/DG makes some very good contributions as regards the false teaching of the pre trib rapture. DG, I think you meant 1 Cor 15.23 not 7.7. Sorry for being so pedantic!
Sometimes I read over my old posts with a very critical eye and wonder if I am being far too harsh in my forthrightness by calling the pre-trib rapture a false and deceptive teaching. Yet everytime I ponder this I keep saying to myself 'Where is this teaching in the Word of God?' Try as I may, I cannot find this 'secret pre-trib' rapture being taught in Scripture.
So am I justified in my use of plain English?
I believe that there WILL be an extremely heavy price paid for being deceived; I will remind you of the many warnings in Matthew 24 alone.
Part 1
Hi Colin,
Thanks, you are quite right about what verse I meant. I am not one who gets upset about correction so there is no need for apologies. I appreciate a person that is concerned with detail.
All that Jewish wedding stuff as far as I know comes from Perry Stone. Never fear he can’t explain it exactly right either. I have listened to his preaching on this subject, wrote down every word he said and none of it made sense. He skips around a whole lot and never really says anything. I don’t know if the Jewish wedding has anything to do with it or not, but I do believe God’s commanded feast (Holy days) do. There is much evidence that God does his planning around his feast.
As far as worrying about being too harsh by calling the pre-trib’ rapture a false and deceptive teaching: that is what it is. I have heard people say “If God don’t save me from the tribulation then I don’t need him.” I have also thought that the people who believe this lie will think the anti-Christ is Jesus because they believe he comes first.
I was once a pre-trib believer myself: God forced me to see the truth and I am glad of it. I understand things in the Bible I never even thought about knowing much less understanding.
Colin said:
“I believe that there WILL be an extremely heavy price paid for being deceived; I will remind you of the many warnings in Matthew 24 alone.”
I agree! There is another problem with being deceived by false doctrine. I don’t know where it is right this minute but somewhere in the Bible it basically says that one untruth leads to many untruths. The untruth of the pre-trib rapture has done this very thing. For example: pre-trib believers don’t understand the concept of the Christians being the spiritual Israel. They don’t believe that the elect in Matthew 24 is the Christians. They think because the word Church is not in Rev. 4-21 those chapters don’t concern the church. In an attempt to prove the pre-trib Grant Jeffery says that the falling away in 2 Th 2 is the church being raptured: NOT! Talk about something being taken out of context to prove a point.
Grant also made this statement:
“However, the postribulation Rapture position can rob the Church of her blessed hope.”
How does the post-tribulation rapture rob the Church of her blessed hope? The blessed hope is the coming of the Lord and the resurrection not being saved from the anti-Christ. This statement is exactly what I meant when I said some people think if God don’t save them before the anti-Christ comes they don’t need him: all hope is lost. How sad that is!
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/article/why_some_reject.htm
Part 2
Hi Sue,
I agree Grammar, history, context, and literal common sense are all vital to accurate interpretation but so is regular ole common sense. You accuse me of taking scriptures out of context: you my friend are the one who is taking things out of context if you actually believe the day of Christ is referring to the tribulation in any verse no matter how you read it.
The only way this verse 2 Th. 2:2 has anything to do with tribulation is that: that day (the day of Christ which is also the day of our gathering unto him) will not come until the falling away and the son of perdition (the guy who persecutes the saints) be revealed.
The Christians of that day were not waiting on the tribulation they were waiting on Christ to return. Please, don’t try to convince me your right by saying the falling away is the rapture of the Church.
Re: Jesus talking about church and rapture.
Actually, Christ himself did mention the church twice: once he said he would build his church on the rock Peter in Matt 16:18 and then in 18:17—And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglects to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
I guess that is enough for now it’s getting late. I do want to say before I go that maybe I did misconstrued what you said about the nation thing and for that I apologize. I will have to study on that some more and get back with you on it.
Have a blessed day everyone,
DG
Tim Warner has done extensive research on the Jewish Wedding. Here is what he writes:
A Kidnapping? Or a Planned Procession?
In the attempt to support pretribulationism from the Jewish Wedding customs, some writers have promoted the myth that the coming of the groom for the bride was
“imminent” throughout the engagement period. That is, she had no idea when the groom would come to snatch her away. She must always be in a state of readiness for his arrival.
Zola Levitt writes:
"And she waited at home every night. She certainly didn't want to be caught away from home when the bridegroom came. The tradition was that he would come at night, even at midnight, and try to take her by surprise. Matt 24:42-44 'Therefore keep watch, because
you do not know on what day your Lord will come. You must be ready, for the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.' ... Yes, suddenly one night the groom would come. The bride's father and brothers would ensure it was the man with the marriage contract, then look the other way while the two of them and all their friends eloped! They were all whisked away into the into the night to begin the reception. ...
Would they have no warning at all? Well, just this much. When the groom's party was close, they would shout; and when the bride heard that shout, she knew she was as good as married."
“The bride, for her part ... did a lot of waiting .... [C]ustom required her to be ready ...
have an oil lamp ready in case he came in darkness ... she was to be ready to travel at a moment's notice. ... [T]he bride would assemble her bridesmaids and whoever would go with her to the wedding ... they were all to have oil lamps ready. They would wait at her house every night on the chance that the groom would come ... and sweep them all away
to a sudden wedding ceremony. ... When the Father deemed all to be ready, the bridegroom would assemble his friends ... and set out in the night .... [T]he Jewish brides were stolen ... as the party would get close to her house, they were required to give her a warning. Someone in the party would shout! When the shout was heard, the bride and her party were to go out to meet the bridegroom."
Chuck Missler writes:
"Although the bride was expecting the groom to come for her, she did not know the time of his coming. As a result, the groom's arrival was preceded by a shout, which announced her imminent departure to be gathered with him. ... The Bridegroom has departed, and
His return to gather His Bride is imminent.”
Part 2 of the wedding tradition:
Both Levitt and Missler are flat wrong.
Levitt gives no source for his information.
Missler cites the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia to support his other points regarding the Jewish customs.
But, he misrepresented his source, which says plainly on pp. VII.
372-373 that the time of engagement was 12 months. The fact is, the bride knew the length of time of the betrothal; it was agreed upon at the beginning of the engagement.
She knew the time of the groom's coming right from the start of the engagement. If not the actual day, at least that it would be at the end of the twelve month engagement.
The coming of the groom was NEVER considered by the bride to be “imminent” during the betrothal period.
It is simply disingenuous for these writers to attach the idea of “imminence” to the bride's expectation.
Not until the twelve months had passed, and the arrangements made for the consummation of the wedding, did she consider his
coming to be “imminent.” And even then, she was certainly made aware, in advance, of the day on which to make herself ready and to expect his arrival. His coming was not actually “imminent,” in the sense pretribulationists use the term, until the shout was
heard from the young men who ran ahead of the groom’s procession.
Hello Colin
Yes, you are justified in using plain English – as long as you follow the God created Grammar Rules for language.
2Timothy 2:15 – rightly dividing.
There is only ONE singular meaning to any passage. The correct interpretation is what the writer intends with his choice of vocabulary. There may be 10 SUGGESTED interpretations but only ONE is correct, the other 9 are false.
Rightly dividing in 4 steps.
1)Focus on a word – do a word search in a concordance to find how a word is used by each writer. Paul’s use of a word can be different to how others use a word. So in Paul’s writings compare Paul’s use of a word in all his writings.
2)Relationship to a word – Words don’t stand alone, they are related to the words around them. These relations are called ‘grammar’ or ‘syntax’ meaning ‘to put together’.
3)Context of a word – VITAL for comprehension. In three parts.
A) The immediate context – the surrounding words.
B) The book – with its sentences and chapters.
C)The Bible – pursue corresponding passages.
4)Cultural use of a word – their setting.
A)Social – the customs of the times.
B)Temporal – the period of history.
C)Geography – where on the earth.
Example of the context in Grammar.
Matt16:18 “… I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it”
The Church was to be in the future (WILL) Personal (MY), permanent (‘Hades …not prevail) project of Jesus Himself (I). In comparison, in Matt18:15-20, Jesus presents His own governing and maintaining the unity of that Church, His Body, yet to be established at Pentecost.
‘I will build’- oikodomeo – a verb - Tense: Future Voice: Active Mood: Indicative
The Greek future tense corresponds to the English future, and indicates the contemplated or certain occurrence of an event which has not yet occurred.
The Greek active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "The boy hit the ball," the boy performs the action.
The Greek indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.
Jesus is the speaker, and by his choice of vocabulary, He expresses His exact meaning to us as the only correct interpretation. The time of this statement is before the cross and the Church was still in the future. That HE will personally build it and it will be a permanent fixture (eternal)
Grammatical-Historical, literal in context Hermeneutic as used by all the prophets, Jesus and the Disciples. Jesus never used the Greek allegorical method of interpretation. In Neh 8 The book of the law had been lost. When it is found, the Israelites had forgotten their original tongue of Aramaic. Ezra the Scribe had to interpret the Law, written by Moses, to them and this is the first recorded instance when interpretation was performed, and it was achieved in the old Judaic method of a Literal interpretation which the Greeks came to despise. They scorned the physical as inferior to the spiritual and preferred to spiritualise the text opening a door to a multitude of interpretations. Exactly as the Emerging church is doing today. Allegory was favoured by Origen, from the Alexandrian school in Egypt, and copied by Augustine enabling the R.C. church to develop their allegorical dogma’s such as Mary as co-redeemer with Jesus.
God bless you, your sister in Christ.
Sue
Part 3 of the Wedding tradition:
In "The Parables of Jesus," Joachim Jeremias (authority on Jewish customs) quoted an
earlier book written by his father in 1909, which described the ancient Semitic wedding custom.
"In the late evening the guests were entertained in the bride's house. After hours of waiting for the bridegroom, whose coming was repeatedly announced by messengers, at last he came, half an hour before mid-night, to fetch the bride; he was accompanied by his friends; floodlit by burning candles, and received by guests who had come out to meet him. The wedding assembly then moved off, again in the flood of light,
in a festal procession to the house of the bridegroom's father, where the marriage ceremony and fresh entertainment took place."
This ancient Semitic custom does not fit the pretribulation scheme, where the groom is alleged to arrive at the bride's house secretly to snatch her away, without any warning.
The Gospel accounts agree with Jeremias' historical account, also implying that the date of the groom's coming for his bride was fully planned and known by the bridal party prior to his arrival.
Jesus' parable of the ten virgins is strikingly similar to the custom
described above by Jeremias. This passage of Scripture is the ONLY account of a Jewish wedding procession in the Bible dating around the time of Christ.
Matt 25:1-10
1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2 "Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 "Those who were foolish took their lamps and took no oil with them,
4 "but the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 "But while the bridegroom was delayed, they all slumbered and slept.
6 "And at midnight a cry was heard: 'Behold, the bridegroom is coming; go out to meet
him!'
7 "Then all those virgins arose and trimmed their lamps.
8 "And the foolish said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going
out.'
9 "But the wise answered, saying, 'No, lest there should not be enough for us and you;
but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.'
10 "And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in
with him to the wedding; and the door was shut.
Part 4 of the wedding tradition:
In Jesus' parable, all ten of the bride's maids had their lamps and oil in them while they awaited the groom's arrival. Are we to assume that the bride's maids were all waiting for a full 12 months with their lamps burning? Hardly! The picture painted by Jesus was
of ten virgins accompanying the bride at her home on the day of the groom's planned arrival. He was scheduled to arrive half an hour before midnight in a grand procession, to take the bride to their new home where the wedding would take place.
When the shout came that the groom was on his way, they took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom’s party.
The bride’s maids must have known the day of the groom's arrival, otherwise they could not have known when to bring their lamps and assemble at the bride’s house! The whole purpose of the lamps was to participate in the festivities of the lighted procession once the groom arrived to fetch the bride.
This fits perfectly with the custom described by Jeremias above. "In the late evening the guests were entertained in the bride's house. After hours of waiting for the bridegroom,..."
Part 5 the wedding tradition:
Apparently, there was some delay in the groom’s arrival in Jesus’ parable. Jesus said they all fell asleep awaiting the groom’s arrival. At midnight the announcement was made, "behold the bridegroom cometh go ye out to meet
him." This fits perfectly with the above custom as well. "After hours of waiting for the bridegroom, whose coming was repeatedly announced by messengers, at last he came, half an hour before mid-night, to fetch the bride; he was accompanied by his friends; floodlit by burning candles, and received by guests who had come out to meet him."
In Jesus' parable, the bridegroom was half an hour late. This is why the virgins fell asleep. Instead of
arriving at 11:30PM according to custom, the announcement finally came of his impending arrival at midnight! Even then the bride's maidens scurried around to trim
their lamps. The foolish virgins were told to go quickly and buy oil for their lamps. This strongly implies that there was some expected time anticipated between the final shout and the groom's actual arrival at the home of the bride.
Alfred Edersheim writes: “The
parable proceeds on the assumption that the Bridegroom is not in town, but somewhere far away;
so that it cannot be known at what precise hour He may arrive. But it is known that he will come that night.”
In Jesus’ parable, the foolish virgins expected that the groom might come while they were out buying oil. Therefore, both the historical and biblical data
strongly refutes the idea of “imminence” at any time during the betrothal period except
after the shout on the scheduled night of the groom's coming.
In his Sketches of Jewish Social Life, Edersheim wrote that the custom in Jesus' day was to have the wedding on a Wednesday, allowing the first three days of the week for the bride to prepare herself for her groom's coming.
"The marriage followed [the betrothal ritual] after a longer or shorter interval, the limits
of which, however, were fixed by law. The ceremony itself consisted in leading the bride into the house of the bridegroom, with certain formalities, mostly dating from very ancient times. Marriage with a maiden was commonly celebrated on a Wednesday afternoon, which allowed the first days of the week for preparation,
and enabled the husband, if he had a charge to prefer against the previous chastity of his bride, to make immediate complaint before the local Sanhedrim, which sat every Thursday. ... This circumstance enables us, with some certainty, to arrange the date of
the events which preceded the marriage in Cana. Inferring from the accompanying festivities that it was the marriage of a maiden, and therefore took place on a Wednesday...
On "the third day" after it, that is, on Wednesday, was the marriage in Cana of Galilee.”11
Notice Edersheim stated clearly that the first three days (Sunday - Tuesday) were set aside for the bride to prepare. Since the day of the week was known (at least three days notice), it was impossible for a bride to be totally caught unaware, as pretribulationist
writers claim.
To DG: if there is anyone out of all of the postings that I have seen on the subject matter of the rapture who can say it in a better than what you have just done then I would like to hear from them. There are no doubts my friend that you are spot on with everything that you have said. Even though this may sound like I just a monkey praising my own tail, I could not have written it better myself even if I tried? That is exactly what the word of God is teaching, the Day of the Lord, and not a Rapture of the Church, as there is no such event as a Rapture. As for the likes of Sue and the others who are preaching this false pre-tribulation doctrine, it may be high time that they sort out some type deprogramming for this rapture nonsense that they have been indoctrinated into believing in the first place as there are no doubts at all that they are all in desperate need of help.
Okay folks. We are getting some insulting comments coming in with bad language which will not be tolerated here.
Anonymous (I know their ID)keep sayiing there is no rapture and is now inserting the usual vile insulting language. There is a catching away it is in Matthew 24, Mark 13,1 Thes 4 and so on.
Can we please move on to events of the day? I undestand how ypu guys feel about the rapture question but we shall soon discover the reality of the timing one nway or another.
I am getting really sick of having to read the unchristian comments that are supposedly coming from a christian on this subject.
So please let's talk prophecy, current events, good books you are reading etc. Because I am so saddened by this insulting bad mouthed stuff I have to read through. As I know who it is I shall endevour now to block them as I did previously. Be blessed.
Hello Bob(
(Please don't worry on my account. Water off a ducks back) :)
The point about the Jewish Wedding is that it is used by God Himself to describe the Church. It isn’t man’s invention. It is a ‘type’ an analogy; indicative of the times and culture of the Hebrew people. John3:29; Rev.19:9. Imminent or not is irrelevant, it’s the image of what happens that God uses to describe the called out Bride/Body and is therefore part of His teaching process worthy of consideration. God calls Himself the husband of Israel and Israel as the wife of Jehovah. Isaiah 54:5,6 Marriage indicates the closeness of the relationship, with the emotional ties that go with it.
Hello Colin, Concerning deception. It is part of sin and Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and took the full penalty upon Himself, so that those who trust in Him for eternal salvation don’t have to pay with eternal death. Jesus has paid in full!
Just in case I hear the cry of antinomianism against me – I am not advocating that it is fine to sin because that is not the case at all. Rom 6:15.We shall suffer the consequences of sin, including deception, during our life-time in discipline from our Heavenly Father; this can even include the sin unto ‘premature’ death (physical). This is why repentance is so important, to keep our fellowship with the Father. Keep short accounts! 1John 1:9.
Vitally there is the reward system given at the Bema Seat of Christ. Romans 14:10; 2Cor.5:10.
This is where we shall have the worse loss that follows us into eternity, so our obedience or lack of it right now, seriously affects our Eternal future. Crowns are awarded for specific works done in accordance to the leading of the Holy Spirit. E.g. 2Tim4:8
Works done in the flesh; shall be burned up and we may escape with only our Eternal Life, but have no crowns to cast before the feet of Christ. Thus denying Christ the rightful Glory He is deserving. 1Cor 3:15; Rev 4:10.
Romans 8:1,2 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Praise The Lord! Thank you Jesus for our great Salvation so rich and so free!
Sue :)
Bob,
Thanks a lot for that discourse on the Jewish wedding. It would appear to make perfect sense. I shall read it again later.
Very sorry to hear about the flak you have been getting. Cannot be at all pleasant.
Sue,
many thanks for that Greek and English lesson! You people here must be typing at 300 wpm!
When you quote that the Church was to be in the future are you referring to Matthew 18.17? Why do people say the Church is a 'mystery'? The Church as I understand my bible was that little flock of disciples and believers that the Lord Jesus called out!?
I don't doubt for one second that the Holy Spirit came down in Acts 2! But surely the Church itself was already in existence?
I have read many books by erudite scholars such as Sir Robert Anderson, E.W. Bullinger, Hogg and Vine and A.W.Pink etc (All pe-trib) Often times I refer to them in my studies. I haven't come to my position without any effort on my part. As to 2 Tim 2.15 that can also apply the the opposite way.
As for some of the 'Church Fathers', how often have they been misquoted by SOME pre-trib teachers.
God Bless
Sue,
I believe the 'Book of the Law' was found in Josiah's day before jerusalem was destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar. I understand that that in Neh 8, Ezra caused them 'to understand the law' as he was a priest. Maybe the ordinary Jewish folk in those days didn't get much Torah study in the captivity!?
I am sure you made an online Freudian slip?
Foxes book of martyrs tells me that this country does indeed know what persecution unto death is like, thousands were burned, strangled, beheaded and those surviving living in fear of it.
Hello Colin
I am thankful you weren't insulted by my presumption - typing is about the only thing I am fast at!:)
It is the Bible itself that calls the church a ‘mystery’, there are several of them and the Rapture is also a ‘mystery’. It simply means ‘hidden’ (by God) and can be translated as ‘secret’. Although I think that causes confusion in our day, as now it is thought to mean something ‘silent’ or ‘not to be told’. Mysterion in the Greek means something that was not revealed in the past, but now it has, by Paul, through the New Testament. Mark 4:11; Rom 11:25; Rom 16:25; 1Cor 2:7; Eph 1:9; Eph 3:3,4,9; Eph 5:32; Eph6:19; Col 1:26,27; Col 2:2; Col4:3; 2Thess 2:7; 1Tim3:9,16; Rev1:20; Rev 10:7; Rev17:5; Rev17:7.
Mystery; Strong’s no.3466. It is in Vines. Too much to put here.
“Matt.16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Future tense)
Did I confuse you? I copied this sample out of my NKJV Study Bible (Thomas Nelson) to show how to check the context of a verse.
The word translated ‘church’ is the Greek ekklesia and means the same as the Hebrew ‘synagogue’; ‘a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating…’ they could be Jews, Gentiles, Christians even the dead in Christ. In this sense it is used as a generic term, not as a noun meaning THE Church as we mean it as Christ’s Body.
Trench is very informative on the progression of the words ecclesia and synagogue (from general to specific) until it achieved “it’s highest meaning of all”
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/trench/section.cfm?sectionID=1&lexicon=true&strongs=G1577
The gathering of Christians was called an ekklesia generically. THE Ekklesia – specific, as the Body of Christ did not begin until The Holy Spirit came baptizing each and every member INTO the Body 1Cor.12:13. Acts11:15-16. They were personally filled WITH the Holy Spirit as well as being immersed INTO the Church/Body/Bride. Acts 1:5 “…but you SHALL BE baptized in the Holy Spirit NOT MANY DAYS HENCE” Also evidence that the baptism in the Holy Spirit was still future as of events in Acts 1.
It is ONLY those who are IN Christ; IN Jesus; IN Jesus Christ; IN whom; IN the Lord, in a very technical way, referring to those who were baptized BY The Holy Spirit INTO the Body of The Messiah at rebirth who will partake of the Rapture.
This was unknown in the O.T. It took Paul to explain what God had finally revealed; and the pending Rapture. It’s all there in the English, to be searched out using the rules of Grammar. It is slowly, slowly but surely, surely that The Holy Spirit is progressively making more and more known, just as He always has. It took the early Church 300 odd years to properly understand the Trinity and give it a name; yet there are still arguments. It has only been since the Reformation that we have properly grasped Justification by Grace through Faith alone. Yet there are still arguments about them.
Daniel 12:4 "But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and KNOWLEDGE SHALL INCREASE"
God bless you all. The time is at hand!
Sue
x
Hello Colin
You had me going there. The old girl aint wot she used ta be and I did that cooking a roast dinner - too many balls in the air? Hm, maybe, but it ties up with the Persian returnees; broken down walls and general malaisee with indifference all round, nothing to do with Babylon methinks. ;)
THAT'S the way to do it Colin - Test, Test, Test... keep it up. :)
Hello Bob
Hopefully this is my last post, I had only intended my first comment out of curiosity. Its old school, don’t ya know, seems rude not to answer a question when asked. :)
Hello Colin
2im2:15 ‘rightly dividing ‘ (the Word) - orthomotea
1)To cut straight, to cut straight ways a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right. 2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly.
(Ref. to hermeneutics, not Rapture timing)
Hello DG
I want to apologise, and explain that I didn’t mean to offend when I explained the verses you gave were out of context. I felt sure Bob wouldn’t appreciate me exegeting all the Scriptures you gave; I was trying to be as brief as possible, otherwise it would have ‘parts 1 to 101’ if I had replied in depth. :)
Perhaps I could just confirm that we agree that the Thess were not waiting on the Tribulation – that was the point Paul was making.
Cheerio all, and Maranatha!
Sue
Sue,
I thank you for those Scriptures. When you are around who needs Bible Gateway?
After reading those Scriptures and carefully digesting them it would appear that Paul is calling the 'Called out ones' a body of believers whom we now know as the Church. This body as we no doubt can agree is made up of Jew and Gentile alike? This was/is no doubt the mystery? Lets face it,after a few years NEW TESTAMENT bible study it doesn't take the brain of Britain to work out that God's chosen people (the Jews) wouldn't have anything to do with us Gentiles-some apparently are the same today. They wouldn't even eat at the same table!Is it not true that most if not all of the Pauline epistles were written before the four gospels?
Was not Paul merely getting across the seismic or cataclysmic event that it was not just the jews whom were chosen and elect before the foundation of the world? That is the mystery.
I was aware that the word 'mystery' was used many times in the NT by Paul, however nearly 2000 years hence it cannot be a mystery any more.
I wonder, have you ever read any works by men such as B.W.Newton, S.P.Tregelles, Nathaniel West and Alexander Reese?
May God bless you.
P.S. I am sure you work for some high pressure sales organisation....maybe yellow pages?
Hi All,
Bob:
Thanks for the lesson in the Jewish wedding. I have only heard Perry talk about it. From his teachings I found that it didn’t hold much water so I never entertained the idea. I am more incline to believe God’s plans center around his Holy days: this I have studied.
I apologize if I provoked insulting comments. This was not my intention nor was it my intention if I insulted anyone.
Sue:
Thanks for the apology but it wasn’t necessary. :) I know what you mean about how much space it can take up trying to explain something that is in the Bible.
In reference to Matt 16 and 18: I can’t argue (so to speak) with your comment. It all sounds feasible to me. There is no doubt you are a very smart lady.
The emerging church: now there’s a subject that needs to be discussed. The apostasy is rising quickly to its full potential in this world of ours. There is so much hoopla in the churches today it makes me weep. I saw a show where some guy was wearing and ACDC shirt and singing a song by them called Hell’s Bells in a church service: unbelievable. I guess because the song had the word hell in it the guy singing thought it was gospel.
I was reading on the Lucas Trust site a while back how one day the only sin will be separatism. I have never read such dark stuff in my life. On the site map you will find articles with names such as: The New World Religion, The Reappearance of THE Christ, and the preparation for the Reappearance of THE Christ. I was amazed to learn that even the mystics are waiting on a Christ: not our Christ of course.
I read an article last year where people were claiming to be Christians but didn’t believe in Christ. How messed up is that? The people of the church said they loved going there because they were not forced to believe any certain thing. It was what they believed inside that mattered rather it lined up with true doctrine or not: leaning on their own understanding.
There is one thing I can say for all of us who frequent this site: our brains and heart are certainly focused on the Lord and his correct teachings. Although we may not agree on all subjects now, I pray that we soon become all of one mind, until then let’s keep studying and challenging one another. I don’t know about ya’ll but the discussions on this site gets my blood pumping and raises questions I haven’t even thought about.
http://www.lucistrust.org/en/content/view/sitemap/2/(view)/index
Blessings,
DG
PS: Colin: I don’t type 300 words a minute: most of the time it takes me hours to prepare a comment as it did with this one.
Bob: I hope this is better for publishing: although I thought I was taking great care with the original. I removed anything I thought might be the cause of you not publishing it. Thanks
Some help please.
Matthew 24 v 44 tells the man on the housetop not to go down but the verse before tells the man in Judah to flee to the mountains, surely the man on the housetop should also flee to the mountains , why stay? is he going somewhere else?
v44 tells us Jesus is coming at an hour that we do not expect Him, but surely if the rapture is post tribulation we will be expecting it.
V 33 tells us that when we see certain things happening then we know He is near, even at the door.
One verse we're told we know He is near, another tells us we have no idea when He is coming.
There is definitely a harpazo but if it is post trib what would be the point and would there be anyone left going up to meet the Lord in the air only to come straight back down again.
These are just a couple of puzzling things in this chapter.
There is much conflict in this chapter which appear to me to be pointing to two seperate events.
G
1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
The resurrection of the dead refers to those Christians who have died and will then be resurrected at the second coming of the Lord, so that those people will then be then gathered together with those who are still alive to then meet the Lord in the clouds. However, the second coming and the resurrection of the dead does not refer to a Rapture. Those who suppose there is going to be a Rapture see the Day of the Lord and Rapture as being two separate events when that is not what the word of God is saying at all. If by chance you are suggesting that the verses quoted above refer to a Rapture then what you are also suggesting is that you know when the Lord is going to return with the facts of the matter being that there is no one who knows when the second coming is going to take place. So as per usual, all that is going on with you, (and those other terribly deceived individuals who are on about a rapture of the church) is that you are adding something to the word of God that is not even there to begin with. By simply totalling the word Rapture to the Day of the Lord and then calling it a pre, mid or post rapture does not cut the ice with me at all, as that is not going to be the instance. There is nothing there at all that even comes close to suggesting that there is going to be a rapture in the most common sense of the word as those Christians over the past couple of hundred years have been indoctrinated into believing will be the case. Have a great day.
Hi G,
You raise a couple of pretty good questions. I’m going to do my best to answer them.
The best way I can explain what Jesus meant by not knowing the day or the hour and then telling us that we will know when it is even at the doors is like this:
Let’s assume your friend calls and says, I’m on my way over to your house. I don’t know exactly what time I’ll be there. My father has me busy doing chores. I’ll call when I am a few minutes away.
Okay, you know your friend is coming over. That person has told you they don’t know exactly what time they will be there. The only clue you have is that your friend will call a few miles down the road from your house. You wait patiently for your friend to call. A couple of hours later the phone rings: it’s your friend. Now you know approximately when your friend will be there knocking on the door. You don’t know the exact minute your friend will be there but you know it will be a lot shorter wait than it was waiting on the phone call.
Matthew 24:16, 17, and 18 are all saying the same thing. When the anti-Christ sets himself up in the holy place the people living in Judea need to run, they are not to worry about any possessions. Jesus didn’t mean they were not to come down from the roof: he meant they were not to come down from the roof to collect things from the house; all they need to do is run.
Re: Harpazo
The Bible plainly says that those of us who are alive and remain (until the end) will (be saved) caught up with him in the clouds. We will be hidden in the day of his wrath.
Zephaniah 2:3—Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD’S anger.
Many pre-trib people bring up the idea of going to heaven and coming straight back as if that just couldn’t be possible or feasible. Why couldn’t it be?
When your friend invites you over for dinner and you except the invite: how long does it take to get your glad rags on: a couple of hours? Then you drive over and have supper. Do you go right back home after you’ve eaten or do you stay for years?
I really hope this helps. I didn’t know any other way to explain it except by using scenarios.
Be blessed,
DG
Part 1
I have been stewing over the rapture debate overnight, and if I may add something to my above comments. (See that footnote) Second Peter tells us that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night and that the earth and the elements will melt with a ferment heat. Effectively, what that means is that on the Day of the Lord, or at the second coming of Christ as some like to call it, (same difference) there is going to be a great cleansing of all wickedness on the face of the earth? That would appear to be the case so that we can all then make a new start? With the accumulation of knowledge that we now have relative to the Day of the Lord, we are told to comfort one another with these words. 1 Thessalonians 4: 18, Wherefore comfort one another with these words. That can only mean that we are going to be taken BEFORE the earth and the elements melt with a ferment heat. After all, we would not be told to comfort one another with these words if we were all going to fry to death in an intense heat. There may be some who would like to call this a pre-wrath Rapture of the Church; nevertheless, there are still going to be those who are reading the verses that refer to the Day of the Lord and start to thinking, well, the Lord is not going to put us through any of this, so let's go a little bit further than that and invent an event that makes sure that we are taken up into the air before the Day of the Lord? Perhaps we can call it the Rapture of the Church? After all, by doing so when can then suggest that we are going to be taken up into Heaven before any of the tribulation period starts and then we will not even have to see the Antichrist, let alone have to suffer at his hands. The quandary with that mindset is that the does not seem to be any real reason for the Lord to return to the earth to meet the Lord in the air before the complete fulfillment of the remainder of the Bible prophecies. Now, I know that I must be very careful in making a statement such as that because what it now seems that I am saying is that the Lord is going to return after the tribulation period, when I do not know that is going to be the instance at all? However, it does not seem to be very practicable to suggest that the Lord is going to return before the Antichrist begins his brutal reign of terror, because if that were the case then the prophecies concerning the Antichrist would not take place? Furthermore, there is nothing at all that I can find in the Holy Bible that gives me any real indicator for timing of the Day of the Lord, and as that is the instance then I can only suggest that he is going to return after the second half of the seven years mainly for the reason mentioned above.
Part 2
Footnote; The resurrection of the dead refers to those Christians who have died and will then be resurrected at the second coming of the Lord, so that those people will then be then gathered together with those who are still alive to then meet the Lord in the clouds. However, the second coming and the resurrection of the dead does not refer to a Rapture. Those who suppose there is going to be a Rapture see the Day of the Lord and Rapture as being two separate events when that is not what the word of God is saying at all. If by chance you are suggesting that the verses quoted above refer to a Rapture then what you are also suggesting is that you know when the Lord is going to return with the facts of the matter being that there is no one who knows when the second coming is going to take place. So as per usual, all that is going on with you, (and those other terribly deceived individuals who are on about a rapture of the church) is that you are adding something to the word of God that is not even there to begin with. By simply totalling the word Rapture to the Day of the Lord and then calling it a pre, mid or post rapture does not cut the ice with me at all, as that is not going to be the instance. There is nothing there at all that even comes close to suggesting that there is going to be a rapture in the most common sense of the word as those Christians over the past couple of hundred years have been indoctrinated into believing will be the case. Have a great day.
Hi there Friends; Sorry to keep harping on the same old chestnut over and over again but there are just too many inconsistencies with the Rapture doctrine that still leaves so many in the dark and totally and utterly confused, and as confusion is something that I cannot tolerate I decided to do a little further digging and here is the conclusion that I have come to. There are some that have been suggesting over the years that 1 Thessalonians 4 refers to the Rapture of the Church, but there are still some nagging questions going on to my mind relative to that Chapter that really need some serious consideration? Consider, if we are being told in that Chapter that the dead in Christ rise first and we who are alive shall be joined with them to meet the Lord in the air doesn't that indicate that we are all going to come back down to the newly formed earth after the wrath of God is complete upon the earth. After all, those who have already died in Christ have received their just rewards and have gone into Heaven. If the Chapter mentioned refers to a Rapture wouldn't that then mean we who may be still alive at the time of the second coming would simply be taken into Heaven to meet those who have come before us? Nevertheless, the word does not actually say that we are going into Heaven on the Day of the Lord; instead, it only says that we shall meet the Lord in the clouds. Furthermore, why would it be necessary for the Lord to resurrect those who were already deceased before his second coming to join those who are alive to meet him in the clouds unless God had something else in mind for those who have already passed? Could that be to come back down to the earth will the newly formed Jerusalem? Is there anyone out there who would like to dispute this, or add some or thoughts to what I have suggested is more than likely the case with the aforementioned scenario, then I would like to hear from you and you and you. As I approach old age, and with all that is going on, I would consider myself truly blessed if I were to pass from this life to the next even before the Antichrist is revealed? Notwithstanding that fact, I don't believe that I am going to be that fortunate as it seems to me that we are almost at the end of it all even as I write this piece, and as that is the case, then, we are almost out of time. Be Blessed
1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Actually, that is what it says. Those which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. What that means is that on the day of the Lord the dead in Christ will be resurrected to join with those who are still alive to meet the Lord in the clouds and then he will bring both parties back down to the earth.
1 Thessalonians 4,14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Robert Muir
Consider perusing the following links as I have always found it helpful to read the views of those who oppose my understanding of Scripture to help clear the wood from the trees. It may help with your questions so you can compare and refute using your own understanding. It takes a few moments to download, so be patient. :)
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Couch-MajorRaptureTermsandP.pdf
There’s plenty more in ‘Articles’ to contend with if this doesn’t suit.
http://www.pre-trib.org/articles
Anonymous,
A very sensible comment. You HAVE to read and do your uttermost to understand the opposing view.
How can you debunk the pre-trib rapture if you don't try to understand their reasoning and where they are coming from?
Since I have discovered that the pre-trib secret rapture cannot be taught from the abiding Word of God I have had my comments censored and heavily edited on other 'Christian' blogs etc!
How will people ever know the truth!!!
Apparently my views could 'offend' other Christians...........
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